Originally posted by Roy
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Apologetics 301 Guidelines
If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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The 'best' arguments for atheism and Christianity
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Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostThat would be the classic biblical understanding Roy. And you know it Roy. And that was the point idiot, God would not be open to scientific testing, idiot. But whether the the New Testament was written as a fairy tale is a claim that needs to be justified, idiot. And can be.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostTheir belief doesn't make it so! Its a fairy tale because its BS, plain and simple. Flesh and blood can't walk on water, two fish can't feed thousands, demons don't live in our bodies, mountains can't be moved by believing, the long time dead don't climb out of their graves and chat with the locals, people don't become paralyzed from sinning, and they are not cured of paralysis by forgiveness, etc etc etc. Its a fairy tale!Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostThat would be the classic biblical understanding Roy. And you know it Roy. And that was the point idiot, God would not be open to scientific testing, idiot. But whether the the New Testament was written as a fairy tale is a claim that needs to be justified, idiot. And can be.
Roy, if you're really interested in how theists might justify claims for God's immateriality, probably a good place to start would be with cosmological and ontological arguments. So, one argument is that, if all material came into being at the Big Bang, it would seem to require some sort of transcendent reality to bring it into being. It would also require something vastly powerful, timeless, and likely personal. Another reason to think that God is immaterial is that, if he is both eternal and immutable (and there are arguments to suggest that he must be), only an immaterial being could be immune from change. An immaterial God would also better explain his ability to be omnipresent. As an immaterial being, God would not be extended in space. Relating to all of the above, the concept of divine simplicity requires God to be immaterial. Furthermore, arguments from mind suggest that if minds are immaterial, they require a conscious being to make them in his likeness.
There are probably a slew of other justifications for the claim that God is not physical that I'm not remembering. These are just the ones that come immediately to mind. Just so you know, I'm not at all interested in defending any of these justifications. There is plenty of literature out there that goes into them all in great detail. A couple recommendations include The Blackwell Companion to Natural Theology, and Scaling the Secular City. At any rate, you're of course free to reject all of these justifications, or deem them completely ridiculous and silly. I just wanted to point out that justifications, regardless of how you might perceive them, do exist.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostCalling Roy an idiot I don't think helps whatever point you're trying to make here seer. It makes you come across as frustrated more than anything.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostThe gospels cannot be assessed as either historically accurate or inaccurate given that they are not based upon eyewitnesses and cannot be verified by the usual historical criteria.This would include multiple pieces of evidence, such as artefacts, or independent contemporary sources etc. But there are none.
No, I do know this. This is the view of every NT scholar, historian of Christianity, etc. in the world who teaches at an accredited university. The gospels testify to how Jesus' message was remembered and interpreted by Christian communities.
Many historical works from the ancient world relate miraculous occurrences. That doesn't make them ahistorical. Nobody discounts Josephus for his reports of miracles.
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Originally posted by seer View PostIt was early, I over reacted - Roy seems to bring out the worst in me. But an immaterial God would not be subject to the scientific rigors that many atheists seem to demand. That however does not bear on the validity or His existence or non-existence.Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
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Originally posted by Jedidiah View PostThis is simply a statement that the truth about God is not in any way influenced by science. God is not a part of the creation if, as we Christians believe, He created it from no existing matter. You can make all the (JimL and tassman) statements to that effect but they are nothing more than personal incredulity.
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Originally posted by seer View PostRight and that is your bottom line Jim, miracles can't happen.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostNo, my bottom line is that they don't happen, so I don't base my judgement concerning them on an ancient book that says they did happen. I'd be willing to bet that if someone came to you and claimed to have experienced or witnessed any of those things, those miraculous things, today, you wouldn't believe them.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by JimL View PostAs opposed to the "nothing more than the personal credulity" of believers. Those of you who believe, do so simply because you want to believe, most of you neither knew, or know still, anything about the cosmological, ontological arguments that were later dragged out to support their belief. Non-believers on the other hand, base their disbelief on the evidence for god, for which there is none.Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
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Originally posted by JimL View PostAs opposed to the "nothing more than the personal credulity" of believers. Those of you who believe, do so simply because you want to believe, most of you neither knew, or know still, anything about the cosmological, ontological arguments that were later dragged out to support their belief. Non-believers on the other hand, base their disbelief on the evidence for god, for which there is none.
Now you may have never asked yourself these questions, nor found any of this evidence particularly powerful, but millions and millions of others have. To lay blanket claims that believers simply believe because they want to, and disbelievers never do that is intellectually dishonest.
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There is evidence, just not scientific evidence.Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostGood to know that your preconceived notions trump evidence. I'd ask you to consider reading Craig Keener's book on miracles, but I'm not sure your mind could take the cognitive dissonance required to get through it while maintaining your skepticism. Even Gary couldn't get all the way through it.
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