Originally posted by lee_merrill
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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The 'best' arguments for atheism and Christianity
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The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI truly do not get this point of view. When a "prophecy" is so open-ended that it stretches off into essentially infinity, how can the lack of current day fulfillment say anything at all? For all you know, it will be falsified in 1000 years when you are long since dead and gone, and you will have pinned a belief on something that turns out to be false. How do you get around that dilemma?
I usually don't get involved in these discussions/debates so please go easy on me. Your argument that I quoted to me on the surface makes sense. But the thing is with Babylon, for much of ancient history this was the fertile crescent and it was also the center or near the center of many ancient empires. So to a believer maybe, it defies belief --- it is extremely unlikely - that this city was not rebuilt but any one or more of these many ancient empires, let alone not rebuilt to the present day. It's not so much that it may be falsified 1000 years from now and so be falsified, it's that it's so highly improbable that it hasn't happened yet that's convincing to a believer like me.3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures --1 Corinthians 15:3-4 (borrowed with gratitude from 37818's sig)
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Originally posted by LostSheep View PostHi Carpe.
I usually don't get involved in these discussions/debates so please go easy on me. Your argument that I quoted to me on the surface makes sense. But the thing is with Babylon, for much of ancient history this was the fertile crescent and it was also the center or near the center of many ancient empires. So to a believer maybe, it defies belief --- it is extremely unlikely - that this city was not rebuilt but any one or more of these many ancient empires, let alone not rebuilt to the present day. It's not so much that it may be falsified 1000 years from now and so be falsified, it's that it's so highly improbable that it hasn't happened yet that's convincing to a believer like me.
It is not clear to me how anyone would measure the "likeliness" of this situation. Ancient Babylon stood on the edge of one of the more forbidding deserts in the middle east. While it was a major trade route in ancient times, as cultures developed to the west and north, those trade routes shifted with them. But even were that not so, to base a belief on a vague, open ended prophecy just does not make a lot of sense to me. The area around the ruins is now extensive farms lands. Part of what was ancient Babylon is now part of Hillah, which is extensively built up. The ruins themselves have become a significant tourist area. So what constitutes "re-built" and when do you know it has happened? Do you have to have skyscrapers? Does more than X% of the local population need to live there? Not to mention the argument I made above.
I know that "prophecy" is a major component of a lot of people's belief system. In my experience, prophecy is usually badly applied math, badly applied history, or just plain snake oil. I find it...unsatisfying. And when someone else bases their beliefs on it...I'm not sure what I think/feel. Perhaps "disappointed" is the best word.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI truly do not get this point of view. When a "prophecy" is so open-ended that it stretches off into essentially infinity, how can the lack of current day fulfillment say anything at all?
For all you know, it will be falsified in 1000 years when you are long since dead and gone, and you will have pinned a belief on something that turns out to be false. How do you get around that dilemma?
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostYou can try and falsify it yourself, is the point. The point becomes more pointed when people have tried and failed.
That is one pillar of my belief, but not the only one, answered prayers is another.
Blessings,
LeeThe ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by LostSheep View PostHi Carpe.
I usually don't get involved in these discussions/debates so please go easy on me. Your argument that I quoted to me on the surface makes sense. But the thing is with Babylon, for much of ancient history this was the fertile crescent and it was also the center or near the center of many ancient empires. So to a believer maybe, it defies belief --- it is extremely unlikely - that this city was not rebuilt but any one or more of these many ancient empires, let alone not rebuilt to the present day. It's not so much that it may be falsified 1000 years from now and so be falsified, it's that it's so highly improbable that it hasn't happened yet that's convincing to a believer like me.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by JimL View PostWell what would you expect with agenda driven authors, would you expect that the authors of the NT would contradict the authors of the OT.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostIf you believe the authors were evil deceitful liars who set out to write a story that matched the OT prophesies and then convinced everyone living then that it really happened when it was all made up, and then died horrible deaths being tortured to recant their stories and yet dying claiming they were true when they had nothing to gain, then I guess you might be a moron.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostActually - that is a somewhat extreme view. A developing theology does not have to be "evil deceitful liars." Matching a story to prophecy is a literary device. It is a way of saying, "pay attention - this man is important." It was not unheard of in that period. If the story being told was a theological one, not a historical one, it would fit quite well. As for the circumstances of their death, these would not be the first people to die for a wrong belief. There is no evidence I know of that they died because of the details of the story - but rather because of their belief that Jesus of Nazareth was the promised Judaic Messiah and the Son of God. One does not have to be a moron to see an alternative way all of this could have unfolded, and one that fits with what we know about human psychology, memory, theological development, and science.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostSorry but the NT is written as a history of actual events, not as an allegory or literary device. One only has to actually read it to know that.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostAnd the letters of the apostles confirm that.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostThe fact that the church started from the time period and has taught this as facts from the beginning also confirms that.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostThe fact that there IS a church is evidence of it.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostAnd if anyone knew whether the "beliefs" were true or not it would be the people who experienced it and wrote about it. They witnessed the resurrected Christ. They were all ready to disband and thought it was all a lie until he appeared to them alive. That is why they believed and why they died for their belief. If they just made it up or merely thought he was the Messiah then they would have never started the church or died for their convictions. All they had to do was go back to the Temple and be good Jews and live a normal life. Instead they lived on the road, on the run from the Jews and Romans, and spread their story and eventually wrote it down. They were mocked, beaten, tortured and killed for something they would know to be a lie? No.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI have not only read it - I have studied it. I do not come to that conclusion.
We have few letters from eyewitnesses, Sparko - and those we DO have are written well beyond the time of the events they record.
No, it actually doesn't. Recorded, formal church teachings begin well after the period of Jesus, and reflect an already developed theology. They cannot be used to support a historical claim.
The fact that there is a church is evidence that the teachings attributed to Jesus found a receptive ear, so gained a following. It is also testament to the incredible leadership power and charisma of one Saul of Tarsus. It is not necessarily evidence that the NT is literal history.
We have no documentation from first-hand witnesses to this event. Even if we did, they are written decades after the events they report, long enough for the "memory" effect to be at work and for the development of a theological interpretation of the events. At no point did I say "lie," and I do not believe they WERE lying. I believe they were most likely following a truly held theology, as you are.
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Originally posted by Sparko View Postwhat you are doing is dismissing the fact that the writers of the gospels were the first hand eye witnesses to the events. They were not just some people who heard a story and then wrote down some legends.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostThe fact that the gospels were written down within a few decades is actually pretty remarkable for historical documents.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostMuch of what we know from history was in written hundreds of years after the reported events. Not much eye-witness testimony in actual ancient history.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostAnd what makes you think the apostles didn't keep notes while with Jesus? I would. And then later compile those notes into the gospels?The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post. . . As for the circumstances of their death, these would not be the first people to die for a wrong belief. . . .Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI am disputing that there is enough evidence to definitively say they WERE eyewitnesses, and that the time elapsed between the events described and their recording is a concern.
I am aware of this.
I am aware of this too, which is why historians prefer multiple documents from multiple independent sources to affirm a historical claim. If they do not have that, they look for presence/lack of consistency within the document, the nature of the source of the document (could they have been biased or had a reason to report incorrectly), and so forth. Many/most of these are missing in the NT accounts of the events described.
Umm...you are suggesting that fishermen following an itinerant preacher kept a journal, and then used them to base the Gosples on? Exegesis confirms a Q source, but it is not dated to a time concurrent with Jesus. And I know of no evidence that suggests it was based on "notes" kept by the apostles.
And the NT is multiple documents from independent sources. And we have other historical and archeological sources that confirm many of the events and people of the time and area.
But if not notes, the society was an oral society. who pretty much had a system to hand down oral stories word for word without embellishment. It wasn't like today where we have to have everything recorded to remember anything.Last edited by Sparko; 12-28-2017, 09:58 AM.
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Originally posted by Jedidiah View PostPure baloney. There is a huge difference between dying for a wrong belief and dying for a story you made up and claim is real.
Also, the only "pure baloney" I know of is at the local deli...The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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