The 'best' arguments for atheism and Christianity

[lee_merrill]

So, what did the prophecy say? Not rebuilt? Or, rebuilt, but insignificant and almost disappearing?

Not rebuilt! And Babylon was basically in decay for centuries, and is now a ruin.

Or rebuilt, used as a capital, but displaced decades later when a new capital was founded?

Well, no, not rebuilt, though used as a capital, and then falling into ruins.

Blessings,
Lee

[lee_merrill]

The problem it is common all through ancient history many great cities, kingdoms, empires were destroyed and never rebuilt. Some cities destroyed were rebuilt again and again when it supported an economy and need.

A prophesy that any one city or another will not be rebuilt is not significant.

Though Alexander the Great tried to restore Babylon, and so did Saddam Hussein, and they both failed.

The prophesy concerning the city of Tyre being never rebuilt failed, because it has been rebuilt and occupied for most of history. There are numerous prophecies that have not come true. Point to a couple of maybes is not a good argument.

Well, you can't have it both ways! Now it's important if such a prophecy fails. But we have evidence that ancient Tyre sank under the sea, and has not been rebuilt.

Prophecies about Tyre: Eze. 26:13-14 "So I will silence the sound of your songs, and the sound of your harps will be heard no more. And I will make you a bare rock; you will be a place for the spreading of nets. You will be built no more, for I the Lord have spoken," declares the Lord God.
Eze. 26:21 "I shall bring terrors on you, and you will be no more; though you will be sought, you will never be found again," declares the Lord God.

Source: Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties

In point of fact, the mainland city of Tyre later was rebuilt and assumed some of its former importance during the Hellenistic period. But as for the island city, it apparently sank below the surface of the Mediterranean, in the same subsidence that submerged the port of Caesarea that Herod had built up with such expense and care. All that remains of it is a series of black reefs offshore from Tyre, which surely could not have been there in the first and second millennia B.C., since they pose such a threat to navigation. The promontory that now juts out from the coastline probably was washed up along the barrier of Alexander's causeway, but the island itself broke off and sank away when the subsidence took place; and we have no evidence at all that it ever was built up again after Alexander's terrible act of vengeance. In the light of these data, then, the predictions of chapter 26, improbable though they must have seemed in Ezekiel's time, were duly fulfilled to the letter--first by Nebuchadnezzar in the sixth century, and then by Alexander in the fourth.

© Copyright Original Source

Blessings,
Lee

[lee_merrill]

OK, Lee. If it's important to your beliefs, so be it. It is not an adequate basis for me to establish a belief system. It's much too nebulous and unbounded.

[carpedm9587]

As I said, Lee, my beliefs cannot be based on scriptural passages or vague prophecies. I will leave that to you. I look elsewhere to base my beliefs.

Merry Christmas!

[lee_merrill]

As I said, Lee, my beliefs cannot be based on scriptural passages or vague prophecies. I will leave that to you. I look elsewhere to base my beliefs.

Merry Christmas!

Merry Christmas to you too!

[shunyadragon]

Though Alexander the Great tried to restore Babylon, and so did Saddam Hussein, and they both failed.

My issue is not with Babylon, but your argument for Tyre is phony based on archaeology. I will bring up other prophecies that failed also.

Well, you can't have it both ways! Now it's important if such a prophecy fails. But we have evidence that ancient Tyre sank under the sea, and has not been rebuilt.

Prophecies about Tyre: Eze. 26:13-14 "So I will silence the sound of your songs, and the sound of your harps will be heard no more. And I will make you a bare rock; you will be a place for the spreading of nets. You will be built no more, for I the Lord have spoken," declares the Lord God.
Eze. 26:21 "I shall bring terrors on you, and you will be no more; though you will be sought, you will never be found again," declares the Lord God.

Source: Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties

In point of fact, the mainland city of Tyre later was rebuilt and assumed some of its former importance during the Hellenistic period. But as for the island city, it apparently sank below the surface of the Mediterranean, in the same subsidence that submerged the port of Caesarea that Herod had built up with such expense and care. All that remains of it is a series of black reefs offshore from Tyre, which surely could not have been there in the first and second millennia B.C., since they pose such a threat to navigation. The promontory that now juts out from the coastline probably was washed up along the barrier of Alexander's causeway, but the island itself broke off and sank away when the subsidence took place; and we have no evidence at all that it ever was built up again after Alexander's terrible act of vengeance. In the light of these data, then, the predictions of chapter 26, improbable though they must have seemed in Ezekiel's time, were duly fulfilled to the letter--first by Nebuchadnezzar in the sixth century, and then by Alexander in the fourth.

© Copyright Original Source

First, I do not consider your reference an unbiased source. Please refer to a better source based on academic archaeology. Second, I believe the reconstructed maps based on archaeology show the island still exists connected to the mainland by damming fill and sediment over the millennia; There are a number of ancient maps and reconstructed maps based on archaeology you can refer to. There is no documented evidence that the black reef or rock? (small Island of Hercules) represented where the ancient city.

Nonetheless the city of Tyre like many ancient geographically important cities has been rebuilt a number of times, and remains today as matter of fact. The prophecy failed.

[lee_merrill]

Nonetheless the city of Tyre like many ancient geographically important cities has been rebuilt a number of times, and remains today as matter of fact. The prophecy failed.

[shunyadragon]

The fortress was on the larger island above the smaller lower Hercules Island. To build a fortress on the low rocky island would be foolish at best. The Hercules island may have been occupied, but it only represent less than a fourth of the whole Island where the fortress and temple was.

See maps here: https://www.google.com/search?q=tyre...ZrA8QPOCm0pyM:

[carpedm9587]

Merry Christmas to you too!

And to you, Lee Merry Christmas.

[lee_merrill]

The fortress was on the larger island above the smaller lower Hercules Island. To build a fortress on the low rocky island would be foolish at best. The Hercules island may have been occupied, but it only represent less than a fourth of the whole Island where the fortress and temple was.

See maps here: https://www.google.com/search?q=tyre...ZrA8QPOCm0pyM:

Well, we'll evidently have to agree to disagree, I gave you what you asked for, secular archaeologists...

Blessings,
Lee

[Sparko]

To me the prophesies in the OT about Christ that were fulfilled in the NT are more important.

[shunyadragon]

Well, we'll evidently have to agree to disagree, I gave you what you asked for, secular archaeologists...

Blessings,
Lee

No, you actually did not, the Island of Hercules may have had buildings on it at the time, but you failed to acknowledge that the larger higher Island had the ancient fortress, walls and Temple located by archaeology as shown in the maps which also located Alexander's constructed Mote. Most of the ancient city, the fortress and temple location remain above water as shown on the maps. The prophesy for the City of Tyre failed.

[lee_merrill]

To me the prophesies in the OT about Christ that were fulfilled in the NT are more important.

Yes, though they are more disputable. I like the prophecies that are falsifiable at any time...

Blessings,
Lee

[lee_merrill]

No, you actually did not, the Island of Hercules may have had buildings on it at the time, but you failed to acknowledge that the larger higher Island had the ancient fortress, walls and Temple located by archaeology as shown in the maps which also located Alexander's constructed Mote. Most of the ancient city, the fortress and temple location remain above water as shown on the maps. The prophesy for the City of Tyre failed.

Well, I did give you references by secular archaeologists implying the ruins of Tyre are substantially underwater.

Blessings,
Lee

[JimL]

To me the prophesies in the OT about Christ that were fulfilled in the NT are more important.

Well what would you expect with agenda driven authors, would you expect that the authors of the NT would contradict the authors of the OT.