Originally posted by 37818
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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The 'best' arguments for atheism and Christianity
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Originally posted by JimL View PostUncaused existence is not what defines god, all that uncaused existence defines is a something that exists eternally, like the eternal substance of all existing things.
Most all physical existing things occupy space in some way - but they are not what constitute space. Space as we know it has a beginning with the known universe.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostThis is your unevidenced assumption, but it need not be God. It could just as easily be characteristic of the natural universe. There is at least some evidence of the latter, there is none for the former.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by crepuscule View PostSo now you say uncaused existence is the only valid and fundamental identity of God? In your previous post you said quite the opposite: infinite, omnipresent or anything else (are) fundamentally the meaning that should be attached to the idea of God. So which one is it? Do you really believe that God being a mere uncaused existence but not. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostGod being, the Who Is, the Uncaused Existence, is infinite, is omnipresent.
Being infinite and omnipresent are characteristics of being the Uncaused Existence. Omniscience is another.
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Originally posted by crepuscule View PostYes (given His existence), but are those other characteristics such as infinite, omnipresence, morally perfect etc. fundamental characterics of God? Because in post #581 you said they were, while in post #583 you said uncaused existence is the only fundamental characteristic of God.
. . . the only valid and fundamental identity of God. . . .
This is the crux of the matter. Why are infinite, omnipresence, omniscience etc characteristics of uncaused existence?
Ask any other theist who has not read this thread, "Why should 1 + 1 = 2 need God to be true?" If it does not, "Why should there even need to be a God?" can be argued.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostUncaused Existence is the identity of God that I know. ( "For in Him we live, move, and have our being, . . ." -- The Apostle Paul)
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"Existence" is not a thing to be caused or uncaused. It is an attribute of things. It is what things *do*.
Things, therefore, can be caused or uncaused, but there is no reason to believe an uncaused thing must exist. At the same time, it appears that many things begin to exist all the time without causes.
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostUncaused Existence is the identity of God that you believe, you can't "know" this because there is no substantive evidence of God existing. Quoting from a book believed by you, but not me, to be the "Word of God" is not a substantive argument AFAIC.
What logical argument can you make to show there is no God? The mere denial that the Uncaused Existence is God is nothing more than just a denial.
Here is something I do not believe you can do> Give the genuine explanation of the gospel of grace - correctly. Here is why: If you could you would become a believer.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by Cerpin Taxt View Post"Existence" is not a thing to be caused or uncaused. It is an attribute of things. It is what things *do*.
Things, therefore, can be caused or uncaused, but there is no reason to believe an uncaused thing must exist. At the same time, it appears that many things begin to exist all the time without causes.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostWhat I wrote was;
. . . the only valid and fundamental identity of God. . . .
So, yeah. What I should have said was "primary" not "only." What being at issue is that unless God is the Uncaused Existence He is not God. Since there would still have to be an uncaused existence and uncaused existence has no God.For all other things being contingent on there being an uncaused existence. It would possess all other things. Which would mean there could be nothing else without it. Unless something exists it is not true. In what ever way that anything might exist would be within the uncaused existence in that all other existences whether caused or even uncaused would be contingent on it. The concept of 1 + 1 = 2 for example.Ask any other theist who has not read this thread, "Why should 1 + 1 = 2 need God to be true?" If it does not, "Why should there even need to be a God?" can be argued.
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostIs space not a thing? Why or why not?
God is not space, yet the Apostle Paul said, ". . . For in Him we live, and move, and have our being, . . ."
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostIs space not a thing? Why or why not? God is not space, yet the Apostle Paul said, ". . . For in Him we live, and move, and have our being, . . ."1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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My argument is not refuted. But mere denial is does not refute that God's primary fundamental identity is the Self-Existent, the Who Is, which I have referred to as the Uncaused Existence, which He is.
Denying what and who God is does not make it so.
Why ask another?
What matters is knowing God. What and who He is.
And not knowing God is the Uncaused Existence does not change who He is. The only why anyone can know Him is through His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.
Atheism can not refute God, but only deny.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostYou are aware that Paul is citing Aratus, the Greek Stoic Philosopher and Poet, yes?. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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