Counterfeits.

[Sparko]

Not in my experience. Christianity was taught as authoritative assertions, anecdotes, rote learning of various hymns and prayers with no evidence beyond references to extracts from the Biblical text.If you don't mind me asking, what evidence convinced you?

It was a long road. Initially I watched my dad who was dying and the doctors gave up hope, recover because of prayer from my mom's church. The doctors were even dumbfounded and could offer no explanation. Then I started going to church, listening to various arguments about Jesus, did some reading on apologetics, regarding the number of documents we have so we know that the bible is reliably what was written, that it is not one volume, but many books written by many authors over thousands of years and we know there was no tampering with the older books because we have older manuscripts and quotes that show that. And that the older books prophesied many things that came true in later books. That it all fits together as one story, with a clear purpose and plan, that the authors had no reason to lie, that they believed what they wrote, that the church would not even have gotten off the ground in those times if there were not a lot of people who also knew what had happened with Jesus. That the universe around us shouts out that God is there.

[Roy]

It was a long road. Initially I watched my dad who was dying and the doctors gave up hope, recover because of prayer from my mom's church. The doctors were even dumbfounded and could offer no explanation.

Thanks Sparko. Obviously I wasn't there, but I can't help but feel that there needn't be a connection - that this could be just co-incidence, not causation. I know of many cases where prayer has had no noticeable effect, and I think there are unexplained cases of cancer remission unrelated to prayer.

Then I started going to church, listening to various arguments about Jesus, did some reading on apologetics, regarding the number of documents we have so we know that the bible is reliably what was written, that it is not one volume, but many books written by many authors over thousands of years and we know there was no tampering with the older books because we have older manuscripts and quotes that show that. And that the older books prophesied many things that came true in later books. That it all fits together as one story, with a clear purpose and plan, that the authors had no reason to lie, that they believed what they wrote, that the church would not even have gotten off the ground in those times if there were not a lot of people who also knew what had happened with Jesus. That the universe around us shouts out that God is there.

Thanks again. As you probably know I'm familiar with those arguments both from reading apologetics and counterarguments, and while I accept this as evidence that the Bible has been reliably transmitted, and the authors believed what they wrote,* I don't consider it to be evidence of the truth of the more unlikely events they describe.

But here's to friendly disagreement.

*Matthew being an exception.

[Sparko]

Thanks Sparko. Obviously I wasn't there, but I can't help but feel that there needn't be a connection - that this could be just co-incidence, not causation. I know of many cases where prayer has had no noticeable effect, and I think there are unexplained cases of cancer remission unrelated to prayer.

sure it could have been coincidence. It was a stroke with a very serious brain bleed. He was in a coma for about a week. The doctors said that if he lived he would most likely be paralyzed and not be able to speak. They wanted us to disconnect him. My mom's church's elders came by and prayed over him and anointed him with oil and very soon afterwards he woke up. Pretty convincing to me. Enough to make me take a serious look at God and Christianity. I don't expect this to be evidence to anyone else. It was just a wakeup call that got my attention. Later he recovered remarkably with some minor memory problems and some difficulty speaking and seeing out of one eye. A lot better than the doctors thought he would do.

Thanks again. As you probably know I'm familiar with those arguments both from reading apologetics and counterarguments, and while I accept this as evidence that the Bible has been reliably transmitted, and the authors believed what they wrote,* I don't consider it to be evidence of the truth of the more unlikely events they describe.

But here's to friendly disagreement.

*Matthew being an exception.

Not everyone will agree on the evidence. In anything. My original point is that there is good evidence out there that has managed to convince a lot of people, many much smarter than me, and many much more skeptical than I was, and I was pretty skeptical. Tassman was claiming that there is not good evidence. I disagree. He may not believe it, you may not believe it, but that doesn't make it not good evidence.

[Tassman]

sure it could have been coincidence. It was a stroke with a very serious brain bleed. He was in a coma for about a week. The doctors said that if he lived he would most likely be paralyzed and not be able to speak. They wanted us to disconnect him. My mom's church's elders came by and prayed over him and anointed him with oil and very soon afterwards he woke up. Pretty convincing to me. Enough to make me take a serious look at God and Christianity. I don't expect this to be evidence to anyone else. It was just a wakeup call that got my attention. Later he recovered remarkably with some minor memory problems and some difficulty speaking and seeing out of one eye. A lot better than the doctors thought he would do.



Not everyone will agree on the evidence. In anything. My original point is that there is good evidence out there that has managed to convince a lot of people, many much smarter than me, and many much more skeptical than I was, and I was pretty skeptical. Tassman was claiming that there is not good evidence. I disagree. He may not believe it, you may not believe it, but that doesn't make it not good evidence.

[Doug Shaver]

Christianity has never been about just rote beliefs drummed into someone's head. It is taught with evidence right from the beginning.

That could be true of the version of Christianity you learned. There are other versions, and some of them really are about rote beliefs being drummed into people's heads and little else. Of course you think yours is the only right version. Those other Christians think the same about their version.

[37818]

That could be true of the version of Christianity you learned. There are other versions, and some of them really are about rote beliefs being drummed into people's heads and little else. Of course you think yours is the only right version. Those other Christians think the same about their version.

Versions of Christianity. There is the genuine where God does the saving and the keeping based on the finished work of Christ (John 19:28; Romans 4;25).. Then there are the counterfeits where faith plus works are of some kind of requirement.

[tabibito]

Here we go again.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

or, if you prefer

You observe that a person is justified through actions and not through faith alone.

James 2:24

・Paul said that a person is not justified by works of law
・Nowhere does the Bible claim that "faith ALONE" saves - Faith is always coupled with another factor.
・Many things are said to save
　　　baptism (in water) 1 Peter 3:21
　　　the gospel 1 Corinthians 15:2
　　　confession/profession Romans 10:9+10
　　　hope Romans 8:24
　　　calling on the name of the Lord. Romans 10:13
　　　grace Ephesians. 2:8
　　　love of the truth. 2 Thessalonians 2:10
　　　repentance. Acts 11:18
And then, just to round it out - Paul's claim (as cited by Luke) that he preached repentance and the production of works in keeping with repentance. Acts 26:20
Of course - Peter's claim that God accepts all who do what is right might be disregarded by some, though why is beyond me.
And all the comments that Jesus made about being accepted likewise.

[Tassman]

Versions of Christianity. There is the genuine where God does the saving and the keeping based on the finished work of Christ (John 19:28; Romans 4;25).. Then there are the counterfeits where faith plus works are of some kind of requirement.

Of course you think yours is the only right version of Christianity. But other believers think that their's is the only right version of Christianity. Wars have been fought over these differing beliefs.

[Doug Shaver]

Versions of Christianity. There is the genuine where God does the saving and the keeping based on the finished work of Christ (John 19:28; Romans 4;25).. Then there are the counterfeits where faith plus works are of some kind of requirement.

Why should I consider you the final authority on which version of Christianity is the genuine version?

[37818]

Why should I consider you the final authority on which version of Christianity is the genuine version?

Why should you? I happen to believe certain things which constitute genuine Christianity. Do this, what would you explain to someone as to how to become a Christian? There are reasons you reject certain beliefs. And there maybe things which you had believed that latter you found were not true. And there are things you believe to be true now, which disallows your belief in Christianity.

[Sparko]

As I said, it could have been a coincidence. It was convincing to me though. I never claimed it would be convincing to you or anyone else. It would not be something I tried to convince others with. Although, it convinced my dad too and he became a Christian. Which further convinced me because he was an alcoholic and he stopped drinking. And not only that, but because of his becoming a Christian, several of his drinking buddies got saved and stopped drinking, and nearly 12 other people that I know of directly became Christian because of what happened to my dad. So it was pretty convincing for a lot of people. I think God was at work there. If not, coincidence did a pretty good job. But again, all that is personal experience, not something that I expect you to believe. There has been plenty of good argumentative evidence for God all along. Objective evidence. But people like you will ignore it. Like I did for so long. Sometimes it takes a literal kick in the head for God to get our attention, like what happened with my dad. Then we start paying attention to the evidence. I hope you don't have to go through such a tragedy, Tassman, but I do pray you get a wakeup call from God. Soon.

[37818]

Of course you think yours is the only right version of Christianity. But other believers think that their's is the only right version of Christianity. Wars have been fought over these differing beliefs.

The enemies of the genuine Christian faith have started the wars.

[Doug Shaver]

Do this, what would you explain to someone as to how to become a Christian?

My initial response would be a question: "Why are you asking me?"

[Tassman]

The enemies of the genuine Christian faith have started the wars.

But of course they have.

[Tassman]

As I said, it could have been a coincidence. It was convincing to me though. I never claimed it would be convincing to you or anyone else. It would not be something I tried to convince others with. Although, it convinced my dad too and he became a Christian. Which further convinced me because he was an alcoholic and he stopped drinking. And not only that, but because of his becoming a Christian, several of his drinking buddies got saved and stopped drinking, and nearly 12 other people that I know of directly became Christian because of what happened to my dad. So it was pretty convincing for a lot of people. I think God was at work there. If not, coincidence did a pretty good job. But again, all that is personal experience, not something that I expect you to believe. There has been plenty of good argumentative evidence for God all along. Objective evidence. But people like you will ignore it. Like I did for so long. Sometimes it takes a literal kick in the head for God to get our attention, like what happened with my dad. Then we start paying attention to the evidence. I hope you don't have to go through such a tragedy, Tassman, but I do pray you get a wakeup call from God. Soon.

this too belongs to the realm of coincidence and happenstance. There is no empirically verified evidence supporting such a claim.