Are You A Good Man....

[37818]

I had to read that a couple of times to decipher your intent, but it still doesn't make sense. Determined and self willed are contradictory terms, you can only be one or the other.

From a finite perspective. God is infinite in His omniscience. We are finite.

[JimL]

From a finite perspective. God is infinite in His omniscience. We are finite.

Well, that is your opinion of course, but I fail to see how that relates in any way to the quote it is in response to.

[Tassman]

From a finite perspective. God is infinite in His omniscience. We are finite.

Yes we are finite, that's all we can know with confidence.

[37818]

Yes we are finite, that's all we can know with confidence.

And from a finite perspective it is not possible to be able to be deterministic and truly random at the same time. That is only possible with infinite knowledge and infinite possibility.

[37818]

Well, that is your opinion of course, but I fail to see how that relates in any way to the quote it is in response to.

Man is finite and self willed. God is infinite and omniscient.

[Tassman]

Man is finite and self willed.

Man is by nature social a animal and naturally oriented toward others.

God is infinite and omniscient.

There is no good reason to think gods exist at all.

[37818]

Man is by nature social a animal and naturally oriented toward others.

Yet, man is self willed in doing so.

There is no good reason to think gods exist at all.

And how do you know there is no reason to believe in any god? What needs to exist would not even be God.

[Tassman]

Yet, man is self willed in doing so.

Certainly, but we have rules of behaviour (i.e. morality) as a method of restraining individual selfishness and building more cooperative groups.

And how do you know there is no reason to believe in any god?

I said there is no "good" reason to think gods exist at all

[37818]

Certainly, but we have rules of behaviour (i.e. morality) as a method of restraining individual selfishness and building more cooperative groups.

And where do those rules come from?

I said there is no "good" reason to think gods exist at all

What would be in your view a "good" reason to believe there is God?

[JimL]

And where do those rules come from?

The rules come from us silly, based on the nature of existence and our place in it.

What would be in your view a "good" reason to believe there is God?

Empirical evidence, such as we have for everything else that exists. First cause arguments such as yours don't work, since they don't necessitate a diety, or an agent distinct from nature.

[Tassman]

And where do those rules come from?

They're instinctive in primate societies such as ours as a means of maintaining an altruistic community, which is essential for the survival of the species.

What would be in your view a "good" reason to believe there is God?

Any argument for the existence of a supernatural entity depends upon a supernatural universe, wherein the laws of nature can be capriciously violated. And there's no substantive evidence of this.

[37818]

They're instinctive in primate societies such as ours as a means of maintaining an altruistic community, which is essential for the survival of the species.

Please give a for example of such a derived rule.

Any argument for the existence of a supernatural entity depends upon a supernatural universe, wherein the laws of nature can be capriciously violated. And there's no substantive evidence of this.

So am I to understand your definition of a supernatural entity is a capricious one.

[Tassman]

Please give a for example of such a derived rule.

ALL of our rules of behaviour as social animals derive from natural instincts such as attachment and bonding, cooperation, reciprocity, altruism, and response to the social rules of the group. And we see the precursors of such behaviour among the other primates.

So am I to understand your definition of a supernatural entity is a capricious one.

If you want to claim that more than the natural world exists you must explain how a non-natural (i.e. a supernatural) world or deity can interact with and violate the laws and constants of the natural world.

[37818]

ALL of our rules of behaviour as social animals derive from natural instincts such as attachment and bonding, cooperation, reciprocity, altruism, and response to the social rules of the group. And we see the precursors of such behaviour among the other primates.

You are just repeating your general statement. You are not giving any example of a derived rule.

If you want to claim that more than the natural world exists you must explain how a non-natural (i.e. a supernatural) world or deity can interact with and violate the laws and constants of the natural world.

No. You claimed that something beyond nature would be capricious. Explain why something beyond nature would have to be capricious.

[Tassman]

You are just repeating your general statement. You are not giving any example of a derived rule.

Focus!

ALL

No. You claimed that something beyond nature would be capricious. Explain why something beyond nature would have to be capricious.

The laws and constants of the natural world do not allow for supernatural interference. E.g. the speed of light is empirically measurable and verified. Variations of the speed of light by say divine intervention renders the speed of light no longer a reliable law of nature.