Are You A Good Man....

[seer]

Right. But fairness is important. Otherwise how will people be convinced of your morals? The whole point of having morals is to better (global) society, and exploitative people are not bettering society.

Again, you are only telling me what you believe. You believe fairness is important. Why would the Stalinist or Maoist what to convince you of anything as they take your rights and property at the end of a gun? And their idea of a "better" society is when they control you. The same with Muslims and Liberals.

But on the whole we're getting better. If there's any truth to this list, all of the 18 deadliest wars in world history happened before 1950. And they all took place when the world had less than 40% the people it does today.

Wars are presently smaller but more diffused - local hot spots that are everywhere. And nuclear proliferation is growing - do you really doubt that we won't eventually use them on a wide scale? Men are given to violence - and I don't see our nature changing any time soon.

[Tassman]

That is just stupid. We don't recognize any such thing. We have been warring, dominating and killing, since day one and still are. The last Century saw the most devastating wars in human history, and this one is starting out just as violently. But hey, no worries, that is how the evolutionary process caused us to act.

Oh sure, the Crusades, The Inquisition, the various holy wars etc are bad. But we recognise that these things are harmful, the mere fact that you witter on about them is evidence of that. But, we demonstrably endeavour to remedy our socially destructive behaviour by legislation, international laws and treaties. We no longer accept the tribal slaughters, rapes and genocides of the likes of Moses or ISIS as god's will. "This is how the evolutionary process caused us to act".

Men are given to violence - and I don't see our nature changing any time soon.

Yeah sure, because Man has been intrinsically evil ever since Adam ate the forbidden fruit and needs an atoning deity to redeem him.

The only problem with your scenario is that Stone Age man (and Neanderthal Man if it comes to that) had its rules of behaviour long before he got around to inventing the gods who gave them to him.

[seer]

Oh sure, the Crusades, The Inquisition, the various holy wars etc are bad. But we recognise that these things are harmful, the mere fact that you witter on about them is evidence of that. But, we demonstrably endeavour to remedy our socially destructive behaviour by legislation, international laws and treaties. We no longer accept the tribal slaughters, rapes and genocides of the likes of Moses or ISIS as god's will. "This is how the evolutionary process caused us to act".

You really are an idiot Tass. Who is the we that don't accept these things? Communists? Hutus? Muslims? African tribes?

Yeah sure, because Man has been intrinsically evil ever since Adam ate the forbidden fruit and needs an atoning deity to redeem him.

I forgot, in you world there is no evil, only genetic predisposition.

[Tassman]

I forgot, in you world there is no evil, only genetic predisposition.

[JimL]

Jim, that is your opinion. Why care about the best interest of humanity? Especially if exploiting your fellow man gains you power and wealth.

What kind of a world would you rather be born into seer, a world in which human beings treated each other the way they themselves would like to be treated, or into a dog eat dog world? I'm sure you would answer that you would rather be born into the former. It would be in your best interests, thats why its good!

[seer]

Again Tass, there are no evils in your world - just genetic predispositions. High crime rates, low crime rates, religious, non-religious we are all just dancing to our DNA. It is all as purposeless as we as a species are.

[seer]

What kind of a world would you rather be born into seer, a world in which human beings treated each other the way they themselves would like to be treated, or into a dog eat dog world? I'm sure you would answer that you would rather be born into the former. It would be in your best interests, thats why its good!

Of course Jim, I have my subjective opinion on the matter. But I was specifically answering something stfoskey15 said a while back.

[JimL]

Of course Jim, I have my subjective opinion on the matter. But I was specifically answering something stfoskey15 said a while back.

Its not a subjective opinion seer. The society that your children or grand children are born into is either a society whose morals/laws are in their best interests, or they are not. You may have a subjective opinion about that, but there is nothing subjective about that as a fact in itself.

[seer]

Its not a subjective opinion seer. The society that your children or grand children are born into is either a society whose morals/laws are in their best interests, or they are not. You may have a subjective opinion about that, but there is nothing subjective about that as a fact in itself.

Of course it is subjective Jim. Why should the Communist or Muslim care about what is in the best interests of my kids or grandkids?

[JimL]

Of course it is subjective Jim. Why should the Communist or Muslim care about what is in the best interests of my kids or grandkids?

Facts seer, facts. They don't have to care, you don't have to care, but the fact remains that if the moral structure of society is one that is in the best interests of those born into it, then it is good.

[seer]

Facts seer, facts. They don't have to care, you don't have to care, but the fact remains that if the moral structure of society is one that is in the best interests of those born into it, then it is good.

Jim, don't you think that what you consider as "best interests" is going to differ from what the Communist or Muslim think? I mean look at you and me. We may agree on a few points but in the end the liberal/conservative divide is going to fall on some very fundamental points.

[JimL]

Jim, don't you think that what you consider as "best interests" is going to differ from what the Communist or Muslim think? I mean look at you and me. We may agree on a few points but in the end the liberal/conservative divide is going to fall on some very fundamental points.

What we think is irrelevant to the facts.

[Tassman]

Again Tass, there are no evils in your world - just genetic predispositions.

Oh yes there are bad things which damage the social fabric of society and humanity. And there are the attempts to overcome these evils e.g., the United Nations, Universal Declaration of Human Rights, local laws and accepted behaviour of right and wrong.

High crime rates, low crime rates, religious, non-religious we are all just dancing to our DNA.

...as opposed to accepting Jesus as your personal Lord and Saviour, you mean?

Interesting that it's the secular societies, which have done away with religious mythology, that generally rank higher on the UN Human Development Index.

It is all as purposeless as we as a species are.

As a species we have no more "purpose" than the dinosaurs did. But at an individual level we demonstrably have purpose in our daily lives.

[seer]

What we think is irrelevant to the facts.

What facts Jim? Who decides what our "best interests" are?

[seer]

Oh yes there are bad things which damage the social fabric of society and humanity. And there are the attempts to overcome these evils e.g., the United Nations, Universal Declaration of Human Rights, local laws and accepted behaviour of right and wrong.

Tass you can have social cohesion even under totalitarian rule, sometimes even more so. And your tribe can have social cohesion while it destroys a neighboring tribe. Besides, why is it even a moral good that we as a species survive?

Interesting that it's the secular societies, which have done away with religious mythology, that generally rank higher on the UN Human Development Index.

You mean secular societies that are slowly losing the demographic battle to Islam? Evolution in action.

As a species we have no more "purpose" than the dinosaurs did. But at an individual level we demonstrably have purpose in our daily lives.

Like I said, so why is it a moral good that we as a species survive in the first place. Since we have no purpose, why do those things that may help our survival like the Universal Declaration of rights have purpose? The purposeless serving the purposeless...