Originally posted by JohnMartin
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Apologetics 301 Guidelines
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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An Argument for the True Faith
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Originally posted by JohnMartin View PostYour argument consists in a series of disconnected bible quotes followed by a disconnected conclusion. Therefore your argument is incoherent.
Maybe you need to send the verses to the Pope so he can interpret them for you?
Good is a mode of being. Whatever thing is, has being and is then good.
Satan exists. Satan is not Good. His having existence is good because it is better to exist than not to exist. But him existing doesn't make him good. Your argument was that since God existed that made God good. It doesn't logically follow.
All moral acts have being and hence are good ontologically.
But not all moral acts are ordered towards the fitting good, and some moral acts are therefore unlawful. Killing your wife is ontologically good, for it is an act, and any act has being, which is good. But the same act is morally unlawful, and then evil, for the act is not in accord with reason and is thereby unlawful.
JM
evil is a moral act and hence is ontologically good.
Therefore evil is good.
Therefore good = evil.
Therefore God is evil.
Desiring to murder your wife is not good. It is a twisting and corruption of something good: Wanting to be happy. - but the corrupted desire is evil, not good. You see the difference?Last edited by Sparko; 03-21-2017, 07:43 AM.
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Originally posted by JohnMartin View PostStock standard Reformed rhetoric that is based upon the Lutheran myth (or some such similar myth) and its attached false doctrines of justification by faith alone.
JM. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostQuote Originally Posted by JohnMartin View Post
Your argument consists in a series of disconnected bible quotes followed by a disconnected conclusion. Therefore your argument is incoherent.
Really? It shows that nobody is good. You are arguing that everything and every body is good.
Maybe you need to send the verses to the Pope so he can interpret them for you?
Good is a mode of being. Whatever thing is, has being and is then good.
You realize the difference in "existence is intrinsically good" and "something exists therefore that thing is good?"
Satan exists. Satan is not Good. His having existence is good because it is better to exist than not to exist. But him existing doesn't make him good. Your argument was that since God existed that made God good. It doesn't logically follow.
All moral acts have being and hence are good ontologically.
But not all moral acts are ordered towards the fitting good, and some moral acts are therefore unlawful. Killing your wife is ontologically good, for it is an act, and any act has being, which is good. But the same act is morally unlawful, and then evil, for the act is not in accord with reason and is thereby unlawful.
JM
so based on your argument, then:
evil is a moral act and hence is ontologically good.
Therefore evil is good.
Therefore good = evil.
Therefore God is evil.
Desiring to murder your wife is not good. It is a twisting and corruption of something good: Wanting to be happy. - but the corrupted desire is evil, not good. You see the difference?
JM
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostIn other words you really do not know the true faith. You see it is by God's witness that one can know. ". . . If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: . . ."
JM
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Originally posted by JohnMartin View PostIt merely shows you can quote some texts without any context and no reference to any authority to tell us the meaning of those texts. The quotes do not tell us that nobody is good, for there are psalms that speak of the righteous.
Maybe you should try to make an actual argument.
The thing is good ontologically because it exists. It is morally good if its will aligns with the law.
You seem to equivocate on existence and good here. Satan is good according to nature, but evil according to will.
Every desire is ontologically good for it has being, but is either good or evil according to the desire being in accord with law or not. Your argument confuses ontological and moral goodness and evil. You interchange the two to come to a false conclusion.
JM
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Originally posted by JohnMartin View PostMaybe you should try to make an actual argument."[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
--Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)
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Originally posted by JohnMartin View PostFaith alone theology has no evidence in the NT. The only time faith alone appears in the NT is in James 2:24 whereby justification is by works and not by faith alone. Faith alone theology is directly rebutted by James.
JM. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostNo. The Apostle Paul, ". . . But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. . . ," Romans 4:5, based on Genesis 15:6. Which James cites in 2:23 (along with Isaiah 41:8.) which was long before Isaac was born. And James regarding Abraham being justified by his works, 2:21, refers to Genesis 22:12 many years later when Isaac was a young man.
JM
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Originally posted by JohnMartin View PostThe works Paul refers to are Mosaic covenant works such as circumcision, which is no[w] replaced by baptism. Faith alone only appears in James 2:24 where justification by faith alone is denied.
JM. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostAh, I should have added [t]. But you are are thinking baptism replaced circumcision. But that is irrelevant not being true. Besides that, Abraham being justified by faith alone not only preceded Genesis 22:12 by years, also preceded the Law by 430 years. James does not deny Abraham being justified by faith. The works did follow the faith showing that it was genuine. (Ephesians 2:10.)
Even St Paul defined faith in terms of hope in Heb 11:1 - Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Also faith without love is worthless, indicating faith must be united to love to give life. 1 Cor 13:2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
Evidently the biblical position is faith is never alone, but is united to hope and love. Faith alone theology is merely the invention of a renegade monk who couldn't keep his vows, so he reduced justification down to faith alone.
JM
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Originally posted by Doug Shaver View PostNo evidence at all? Not really. The evidence is not conclusive, obviously, but the evidence is there in Ephesians 2:8-9.
JM
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Originally posted by Sparko View Post
so based on your argument, then:
evil is a moral act and hence is ontologically good.
Therefore evil is good.
Therefore good = evil.
Therefore God is evil.
Of course, no one else including atheists will come to your conclusion!!!!!Last edited by shunyadragon; 03-29-2017, 10:16 PM.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostExcellent exercise in logic!!!!!! Congratulations on your conclusion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Of course, no one else including atheists will come to your conclusion!!!!!
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