Plantinga's argument for Design.

[seer]

That was in reference to his early 90s essay that was much more staunchly creationist, referencing the paucity of fossils. I rescind the skeletons comment until I can find that link.

Good, but the fact is I don't know anyone whose views don't change over time as he gets more info. Do you? That should be held against Plantinga anyone else.

As for the DI article, you'll have to read the decision until we can discuss why his response is bad. It's way difficult to discuss things with you unless you understand the principle controversy. Learn that, and then you'll be equipped to have a discussion about Plantinga's article. Don't be Shuny.

Ok, so you come into this thread questioning Plantinga's understanding or truthfulness but we can't discuss it until I read the entire Dover opinion? Really whag? OingoBoingo was correct - you just wanted to poison the well. Bad form old man...

[whag]

I'm familiar with the Dover Trial and its decision. If you're turning the thread in that direction, then I don't I have anything of value to offer on the subject right now.

I respect that. Plantinga's views are difficult to defend in light of what went down in Dover. He was apparently suffering "Shuny Syndrome" when he wrote that hasty response to the decision.

[whag]

Don't give me that crap whag. When you say that a man has skeletons in his closet you are implying that he is dishonest or hiding something. What did Plantinga say that was so out of bounds - be specific please!

That was in reference to his early 90s essay that was much more staunchly creationist, referencing the paucity of fossils. I rescind the skeletons comment until I can find that link.

As for the DI article, you'll have to read the decision until we can discuss why his response is bad. It's way difficult to discuss things with you unless you understand the principle controversy. Learn that, and then you'll be equipped to have a discussion about Plantinga's article. Don't be Shuny.

[seer]

I didn't attack his character, unless linking to his views on ID counts as character assassination. I think that's far fetched.

I've read Plantinga's Dover article many times, yes. First, I read the decision. You need to read the decision before you know if Plantinga is wrong or right.

Don't give me that crap whag. When you say that a man has skeletons in his closet you are implying that he is dishonest or hiding something. What did Plantinga say that was so out of bounds - be specific please!

[OingoBoingo]

No, rather I saw that you were impatient and declared yourself done with Shuny and the topic at hand. Were you done, or did I misunderstand your exasperation?

The thread has now evolved to explore Plantinga's opinion about teaching ID, which the Dover trial was all about.





I wouldn't call it changing the subject. I thought you were done, and now we're moving on to a related topic.

I will not discuss this with you in particular until you read the decision, though. I'm sure you have, but I just wanted to establish that in case you were planning on discussing this without having read it.

I'm familiar with the Dover Trial and its decision. If you're turning the thread in that direction, then I don't I have anything of value to offer on the subject right now.

[whag]

Did you read Plantinga's response? What was so out of bounds? The fact is whag, you had no reason to attack Plantinga's character. And none of this changes the fact that Shuny is once again clueless...

I didn't attack his character, unless linking to his views on ID counts as character assassination. I think that's far fetched.

I've read Plantinga's Dover article many times, yes. First, I read the decision. You need to read the decision before you know if Plantinga is wrong or right.

[seer]

Did you read Judge Jones' decision?

Did you read Plantinga's response? What was so out of bounds? The fact is whag, you had no reason to attack Plantinga's character. And none of this changes the fact that Shuny is once again clueless...

[whag]

But whag, you attacked his character claiming that he had "skeletons in his closet." And even in your link about the Dover case, I see nothing that is off the wall.

Did you read Judge Jones' decision?

[whag]

So you were just looking for an opportunity to poison the well. Got it.

No, rather I saw that you were impatient and declared yourself done with Shuny and the topic at hand. Were you done, or did I misunderstand your exasperation?

The thread has now evolved to explore Plantinga's opinion about teaching ID, which the Dover trial was all about.

Would you like to change the subject of this thread to Plantinga's views on the Discovery Institute?

I wouldn't call it changing the subject. I thought you were done, and now we're moving on to a related topic.

I will not discuss this with you in particular until you read the decision, though. I'm sure you have, but I just wanted to establish that in case you were planning on discussing this without having read it.

[OingoBoingo]

Your exchange with Carrikature had to do with teleology. I didn't say it was a defeater of Plantinga's theories.

So you were just looking for an opportunity to poison the well. Got it.

Allying himself with DI certainly makes him out of touch, but not necessarily a kook. The problem with supporting DI is its bad reputation and incoherent beliefs regarding the evolution of life. The theory of evolution definitely doesn't need a religious organization to help fine tune the theory to match some Christians' unwarranted skepticism of morphological change in species. The theory of evolution is doing just fine, thank you very much.

Plantinga can disagree with evolutionary science all he wants. I just wanted to show that he's still suspicious of evolution, so much so that he vociferously disagreed with the verdict in the Dover trial via DI's website, like so many other creationists did at the same time.

Would you like to change the subject of this thread to Plantinga's views on the Discovery Institute?

[seer]

Plantinga can disagree with evolutionary science all he wants. I just wanted to show that he's still suspicious of evolution, so much so that he vociferously disagreed with the verdict in the Dover trial via DI's website, like so many other creationists did at the same time.

But whag, you attacked his character claiming that he had "skeletons in his closet." And even in your link about the Dover case, I see nothing that is off the wall.

[whag]

:)

Sort of strange that that link was thrown out as if it was some sort of defeater for Plantinga's theories on other matters.

Your exchange with Carrikature had to do with teleology. I didn't say it was a defeater of Plantinga's theories.

People can disagree with him on this point, but that doesn't make him an out of touch kook.

Allying himself with DI certainly makes him out of touch, but not necessarily a kook. The problem with supporting DI is its bad reputation and incoherent beliefs regarding the evolution of life. The theory of evolution definitely doesn't need a religious organization to help fine tune the theory to match some Christians' unwarranted skepticism of morphological change in species. The theory of evolution is doing just fine, thank you very much.

Plantinga can disagree with evolutionary science all he wants. I just wanted to show that he's still suspicious of evolution, so much so that he vociferously disagreed with the verdict in the Dover trial via DI's website, like so many other creationists did at the same time.

[OingoBoingo]

Read my first paragraph and your last exchange with Carrikature.

I'm not following. Are you agreeing with me that shunyadragon created a thread about something he clearly doesn't understand, because Plantinga elsewhere said something about the subject of evolution unassociated with his evolutionary argument against naturalism?

[OingoBoingo]

Lies! Any scientist would know that pi=3.14159265358979323846....

:)

Sort of strange that that link was thrown out as if it was some sort of defeater for Plantinga's theories on other matters. He mentions that IDers don't believe in YEC (which they don't). That they believe in evolution (which they do), and then he presents his disapproval of Methodological Naturalism (which shunyadragon thinks is intrinsically tied to his evolutionary argument against naturalism, but isn't).

Plantinga's biggest issue with Methodological Naturalism is that it sets a limiter. He believes that naturalistic epistemology is a tool for finding out the truth of the world (i.e. science), but he doesn't think that we should ONLY be limited to naturalistic epistemology.

People can disagree with him on this point, but that doesn't make him an out of touch kook.

[seer]

Plantinga has some skeletons in his closet regarding ID, and that's probably why Shuny and philosophers like Ruse react strongly when Plantinga has the nerve to talk about how evolution can be an apologetic for teleology.

No, Shuny has no excuse. Just go over the back and forth in this debate. And as far as I can tell, or have read, Plantinga doesn't have any "skeletons in his closet."

Everyone who's knows about how that trial went down should be surprised that Plantinga has seemingly changed his view without apologizing or clarifying to believers who he mislead by voicing skepticism about nature's facts. It's possible that piece of contrition exists and I missed it. He's written a lot of stuff.

Changed his view? Where exactly?