Originally posted by 37818
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Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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A question for atheists . . .
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Originally posted by JimL View PostYou're the one who claimed to know that god exists, that you're god exists. . . .
Argument 1. There is an uncaused existence. I personally identify God to be that uncaused existence.
Argument 2. The universe is evidence. All evidence is finite and temporal. All finite and temporal things are caused. An infinite regress of cause and effect has no first cause. Such a regess requires cause for not having a first cause. It still needs an uncaused cause. All causes are finite and temporal. But the cause of an infinite regress would also be infinite having no beginning, being uncaused. being uncaused requires an uncaused existence. An uncaused cause is both eternal and temporal, both infinite and finite.
Argument 3. The Hebrews worshiped their God whom they called the [self] Existent one. Which identifies the God I believe in with the God of the Hebrews.
Argument 4. God has made Himself knowable. One such claim is found in John 7:17. Who has refuted it?
Belief in biblical proclamations is not knowledge of the truth of those proclamations, so your knowledge of gods existence doesn't come from the bible. So I guess the question is, what actual knowledge do you have, and how did you come by it?
And no one is refusing to understand it, what we are asking you, is to tell us what it is. What is it that you say god provides to the converted in the way of evidence, or knowledge, of his existence?. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostI am not just one. I am one of many.
Argument 1. There is an uncaused existence. I personally identify God to be that uncaused existence.
Argument 2. The universe is evidence. All evidence is finite and temporal. All finite and temporal things are caused. An infinite regress of cause and effect has no first cause. Such a regess requires cause for not having a first cause. It still needs an uncaused cause. All causes are finite and temporal. But the cause of an infinite regress would also be infinite having no beginning, being uncaused. being uncaused requires an uncaused existence. An uncaused cause is both eternal and temporal, both infinite and finite.
Argument 3. The Hebrews worshiped their God whom they called the [self] Existent one. Which identifies the God I believe in with the God of the Hebrews.
Argument 4. God has made Himself knowable. One such claim is found in John 7:17. Who has refuted it?"[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
--Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostI am not just one. I am one of many. Are you just one agnostic? A mere denial of a view does not refute it. Merely dismissing arguments does not refute them. Do I need to repeat the arguments I have given? I guess I do.
For example:Argument 4. God has made Himself knowable. One such claim is found in John 7:17. Who has refuted it?Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
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Originally posted by Roy View PostEvidence.
Not assertions.
Not bait-and-switch.
Not logical fallacies.
Evidence.
The thing you keep claiming to have, but then back down whenever you are asked to provide it.Those things are in evidence, but they are not evidence for the Christian god.I'm not refusing to understand it, you are refusing to provide anything that I could understand.
You said you had evidence available to anyone. But when pushed, you admit your 'evidence' is only available to those who already believe.
Reality is what doesn't go away when you stop believing in it. . . .
If the evidence for your god is only available if you already believe in it, then your god is not real.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostI am not just one. I am one of many. Are you just one agnostic? A mere denial of a view does not refute it. Merely dismissing arguments does not refute them. Do I need to repeat the arguments I have given? I guess I do.
Argument 1. There is an uncaused existence. I personally identify God to be that uncaused existence.
Argument 2. The universe is evidence. All evidence is finite and temporal. All finite and temporal things are caused. An infinite regress of cause and effect has no first cause. Such a regess requires cause for not having a first cause. It still needs an uncaused cause. All causes are finite and temporal. But the cause of an infinite regress would also be infinite having no beginning, being uncaused. being uncaused requires an uncaused existence. An uncaused cause is both eternal and temporal, both infinite and finite.
Argument 3. The Hebrews worshiped their God whom they called the [self] Existent one. Which identifies the God I believe in with the God of the Hebrews.
Argument 4. God has made Himself knowable. One such claim is found in John 7:17. Who has refuted it?
Again, see the above.
Again, see the above.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostThat the Bible presumes, doesn't make the presumption true, . . .
. . . and beyond that, believing it to be true is not knowing it to be true. . . .
. . . Your claim was that you KNOW, and the question is how do you KNOW, not why do you believe.
As an agnostic you have a real problem recognizing what is true. Only what is recognized as being true should be believed. Only when something true is believed can it be said to be one's knowledge.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostA mere presumption of truth does not make anything true.
The act of believing does not make a thing true.
Unless what is true is believed, it is not yet one's knowledge. The question becomes how does one know anything is true?
As an agnostic you have a real problem recognizing what is true. Only what is recognized as being true should be believed. Only when something true is believed can it be said to be one's knowledge.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
This is a problem, because too many people claim to believe what is true with too many conflicting different 'truths.'
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostA mere presumption of truth does not make anything true.
The act of believing does not make a thing true.
Unless what is true is believed, it is not yet one's knowlede. The question becomes how does one know anything is true?
As an agnostic you have a real problem recognizing what is true. Only what is recognized as being true should be believed. Only when something true is believed can it be said to be one's knowledge.
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