Send proof! of miracles...

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Why would we believe in God but not in angels or demons?

The influence of Zoroastrianism on the post Exilic Israelites perhaps?

[tabibito]

It strikes me as odd that someone living in the third decade of the 21st century and who has no objections to utilising its technology [a computer and the internet] would hold views concerning malign spirits that are more reminiscent of someone living in the late Bronze Age.

Strangely, that is a fair parallel to my own response when I had my first encounter with the miraculous. (though at the time, the C=64 was still a few years from being released)

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Strangely, that is a fair parallel to my own response when I had my first encounter with the miraculous. (though at the time, the C=64 was still a few years from being released)

You keep referring to this experience but are rather reluctant to share it. Hence, I cannot discount the likelihood that it was all part of your imagination.

[tabibito]

You keep referring to this experience but are rather reluctant to share it. Hence, I cannot discount the likelihood that it was all part of your imagination.

You would do so anyway. An audience's belief or non-belief will not be modified by the details. However, the first was a small matter of what often goes by the term of telekinesis. Most commonly, the experiences have involved prophecy by its broader definition.

[Mountain Man]

It strikes me as odd that someone living in the third decade of the 21st century and who has no objections to utilising its technology [a computer and the internet] would hold views concerning malign spirits that are more reminiscent of someone living in the late Bronze Age.

I see, so your question wasn't a sincere inquiry but the setup for a cheap insult.

And you wonder why nobody here takes you seriously.

Really, I don't know why you think it so strange that a Christian who believes in God and angels and Jesus rising from the dead would also believe in the existence of demons.

[Cerebrum123]

It strikes me as odd that someone living in the third decade of the 21st century and who has no objections to utilising its technology [a computer and the internet] would hold views concerning malign spirits that are more reminiscent of someone living in the late Bronze Age.

Your chronological snobbery is showing. Many, many people have encountered demonic entities even to this day. Now, some can be explained away as hallucinations, but a lot can't. I have seen and heard multiple of them over many years. I lived in a house that many people would call "haunted*". Among things it could do was opening locked doors without a key, teleportation, and making sounds of events that didn't happen**. I was not the only one there who had encounters with it, but I was the only one I know of that saw it directly.

*It was an old Victorian house, so there is a long history at that house beyond me and my family's memories. It wasn't just family members who experienced such things either.

**One of which sounded like someone took a large glass or ceramic item and threw it at the floor as hard as they could. Upon investigation there was nothing there. Nothing like that was broken outside the house in a reasonable vicinity either.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Your chronological snobbery is showing.

It is not snobbery it is generally known as is being rational. In a world that believed in magic then various exploits that today can be easily explained, would be considered magical/miraculous. However, in today's world fantastic claims demand fantastic evidence. And there is none.

Many, many people have encountered demonic entities even to this day. Now, some can be explained away as hallucinations, but a lot can't. I have seen and heard multiple of them over many years.

Have you ever considered it just might have been wish fulfilment and your imagination, given that you hold a belief in such things?

I lived in a house that many people would call "haunted*". Among things it could do was opening locked doors without a key, teleportation, and making sounds of events that didn't happen**. I was not the only one there who had encounters with it, but I was the only one I know of that saw it directly

*It was an old Victorian house, so there is a long history at that house beyond me and my family's memories. It wasn't just family members who experienced such things either.

**One of which sounded like someone took a large glass or ceramic item and threw it at the floor as hard as they could. Upon investigation there was nothing there. Nothing like that was broken outside the house in a reasonable vicinity either.

And did you or anyone else record any of this? Or is it all anecdotal?

If I recall correctly it was the late James Randi who recounted the following episode.

A group of parapsychologists were given a demonstration of psychical powers by a group who claimed to have such abilities. When the parapsychologists asked these individuals how they had accomplished their various feats, the answer came back "We cheat". They were actually a group of sleight of hand artists. Penn and Teller and Derren Brown engage in remarkable performances but they would not pretend that any of it is real.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

I see, so your question wasn't a sincere inquiry but the setup for a cheap insult.

Why is what I wrote a "cheap insult"?

Really, I don't know why you think it so strange that a Christian who believes in God and angels and Jesus rising from the dead would also believe in the existence of demons.

It strikes me that some people are ludicrously superstitious and that, despite the Age of Enlightenment and our present technologically based society, many espouse beliefs that would have been familiar to many in the ancient world.

[Cerebrum123]

It is not snobbery it known as is being rational. In a world that believed in magic then various exploits that today can be easily explained, would be considered magical/miraculous. However, in today's world fantastic claims demand fantastic evidence. And there is none.

No, it's snobbery. You clearly think your views are the only "modern" and "rational" view which you equate the two in your mind. There are many people in the modern world who accept the existence of such phenomenon, even atheists and agnostics.

I have a feeling you'd agree with Sherlock Homes "Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth", but the problem is you have already decided certain probabilities are impossible.

Have you ever considered it just might have been wish fulfilment and your imagination, given that you hold a belief in such things?

One of the most terrifying experiences of my life, alongside me being too afraid to tell anyone at first even my Christian parents because I was afraid they wouldn't believe me as "wish fulfillment"? That's not a thought I ever had, because it is absurd. I was pretty young at the time, and thought things like that demons had to possess a person. I didn't think ghosts were real, and my parents suddenly making me get rid of my Ghostbusters right before my experience had me thinking they thought such things couldn't happen.

I didn't get the full story and didn't get the full story until years later. My mom was the first to have an experience, and my dad among others made fun of her for it. Until they started having such experiences too.

And did you or anyone else record any of this? Or is it all anecdotal?

Recording equipment was the last thing on our minds in these kinds of situations. It's not like we could ask it to hold on while we went and found the camera and some film to use. At this point I doubt even such video evidence would satisfy you. You'd probably claim it was edited.

If I recall correctly it was the late James Randi who recounted the following episode.

A group of parapsychologists were given a demonstration of psychical powers by a group who claimed to have such abilities. When the parapsychologists asked these individuals how they had accomplished their various feats, the answer came back "We cheat". They were actually a group of sleight of hand artists. Penn and Teller and Derren Brown engage in remarkable performances but they would not pretend that any of it is real.

There are certainly those who cheat such experiments. Hucksters, frauds, and just plain hallucinations of the miraculous happen. No one here is denying any of that. There is an opposing corollary you haven't considered. Many with the kinds of views who run these studies have their own bias set against anyone being legitimate. Some of them used to be hucksters and are now trying to "out" others. Anti-supernatural bias exists, and can get people to deny what's right in front of them. In conclusion there are more things on heaven and earth, Hypatia, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

No, it's snobbery. You clearly think your views are the only "modern" and "rational" view which you equate the two in your mind.

One has to be rational otherwise anything can believed to be true. Alien abductions, poltergeist phenomena, statues that weep or move. How far do you want to take this?

There are many people in the modern world who accept the existence of such phenomenon, even atheists and agnostics.

And?

I have a feeling you'd agree with Sherlock Homes "Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth", but the problem is you have already decided certain probabilities are impossible.

And we have to eliminate the impossible. Ghosts are not real, the dead do not communicate via mediums, demons do not exist. Objects do not levitate or move without some rational explanation.

On 31 October [Halloween] 1992 the BBC did a spoof documentary Ghostwatch.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghostwatch

It was presented by well known television personalities as a studio based programme with a live outside broadcast. It was amazing just how many of the viewing public were taken in by it and had various psychic experiences as a result. They did not appear to recognise the date! Orson Welles did a different sort of spoof back in 1938 on October 30th [Mischief Night] and also managed to dupe a few people.

One of the most terrifying experiences of my life, alongside me being too afraid to tell anyone at first even my Christian parents because I was afraid they wouldn't believe me as "wish fulfillment"? That's not a thought I ever had, because it is absurd. I was pretty young at the time, and thought things like that demons had to possess a person.

You admit to being pre-conditioned - you believed in demonic possession. Likewise your parents.

Recording equipment was the last thing on our minds in these kinds of situations. It's not like we could ask it to hold on while we went and found the camera and some film to use. At this point I doubt even such video evidence would satisfy you. You'd probably claim it was edited.

None of these things have been observed/recorded under strict conditions. They are invariably anecdotes.

While I appreciate your reference to Hamlet, how do you differentiate between an imagined experience of the paranormal and what you consider to be a real one?

What criteria would you employ to differentiate the two?

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

You would do so anyway. An audience's belief or non-belief will not be modified by the details. However, the first was a small matter of what often goes by the term of telekinesis. Most commonly, the experiences have involved prophecy by its broader definition.

Really? What was the object , how far did it travel, what time of the day was it, and who else experienced this event?

[tabibito]

Really? What was the object , how far did it travel, what time of the day was it, and who else experienced this event?

I prefer to not answer that question from anyone. However, if someone with a genuine interest asked, I would provide as much detail as I deemed appropriate.

[Cerebrum123]

One has to be rational otherwise anything can believed to be true. Alien abductions, poltergeist phenomena, statues that weep or move. How far do you want to take this?

Except for alien abductions I've seen good evidence for all of those.

And?

You are already equating "modern" with "rational" in your previous posts. Given your history the next step was likely equating rational to atheism and agnosticism. I've seen the pattern in others before.

And we have to eliminate the impossible. Ghosts are not real, the dead do not communicate via mediums, demons do not exist. Objects do not levitate or move without some rational explanation.

On 31 October [Halloween] 1992 the BBC did a spoof documentary Ghostwatch.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghostwatch

It was presented by well known television personalities as a studio based programme with a live outside broadcast. It was amazing just how many of the viewing public were taken in by it and had various psychic experiences as a result. They did not appear to recognise the date! Orson Welles did a different sort of spoof back in 1938 on October 30th [Mischief Night] and also managed to dupe a few people.[/quote]

I'm not denying that fakes exist, I've seen some. I've also studied magic tricks, so I know some of the stuff to look for in such cases.

I know you think all of those things are impossible. I can't, I've seen too much that goes way beyond what atheist scientists say.

You admit to being pre-conditioned - you believed in demonic possession. Likewise your parents.

For the sarcastically impaired the following is said in jest

Yes, I was so preconditioned to believe what I saw would happen that I was afraid to tell anyone because I thought they would think I was crazy.

I'd have to believe that I was so preconditioned to believe that such stuff happens, and be afraid that everyone who was involved in such conditioning wouldn't believe me at the same time.

For the record I watched a lot of "Scooby Doo Where Are You*?", so there was conditioning in the other direction too.

None of these things have been observed/recorded under strict conditions. They are invariably anecdotes.

And? I never claimed to have more than the examples I know of.

While I appreciate your reference to Hamlet, how do you differentiate between an imagined experience of the paranormal and what you consider to be a real one?

What criteria would you employ to differentiate the two?

If this was just one person, then maybe you could write it off as hallucination, but we have numerous people over the course of years at that house who experienced similar. We had someone rent one of the rooms at the house, he was making fun of my mom and dad for believing that demons or ghosts existed. At least he did until he had such experiences himself.

A couple things I would use to differentiate fake accounts from real ones. 1. The person/people involved is/are trustworthy. 2. There isn't a reason to doubt their senses. 3. There isn't a more parsimonious explanation. Extra points if there are multiple witnesses that meet criteria #1.

*I specify that series, but quite a few cartoons had the same kind of message as the original Scooby Doo. No ghosts are real, it's always just someone in a mask, or an illusion etc. Much later they tackle the extreme skepticism when they did a movie with real ghosts and zombies. All of them had been conditioned to think none of it was real, but Fred took it to an extreme in denying it even when they had more than enough evidence to the contrary.

[tabibito]

I know you think all of those things are impossible. I can't, I've seen too much that goes way beyond what atheist scientists say.

For the sarcastically impaired the following is said in jest

Yes, I was so preconditioned to believe what I saw would happen that I was afraid to tell anyone because I thought they would think I was crazy.

I'd have to believe that I was so preconditioned to believe that such stuff happens, and be afraid that everyone who was involved in such conditioning wouldn't believe me at the same time.

For the record I watched a lot of "Scooby Doo Where Are You*?", so there was conditioning in the other direction too.

Never yet encountered a hypothesis that didn't start with anecdotal evidence; the alternative would be a hypothesis that was pulled out of thin air. Once hypotheses have been tested and found acceptable, they become theories.

A recent TV series in Japan featured a run of supposedly paranormal crimes where the a university professor nicknamed Galileo (with a personality much along the lines of Sherlock Holmes) was trapped (by his own personality quirk) into helping with police investigations. Episode after episode had him solving crimes that left almost no clues and confirming that the paranormal was not involved. In one episode he proved that warming experienced by people in a religious cult was not the result of the leader's spiritual power, but by microwaves. Conclusively proven - the cult leader's wife and others being responsible for the hoax. All done and dusted until the final scene, out of sight of Galileo and other parties, where the cult leader was actually performing the ceremony where warming was experienced by a fellow prisoner. The message there (seemingly) was that the existence of fakes doesn't disprove the existence of the genuine.

[Cerebrum123]

Never yet encountered a hypothesis that didn't start with anecdotal evidence; the alternative would be a hypothesis that was pulled out of thin air. Once hypotheses have been tested and found acceptable, they become theories.

A recent TV series in Japan featured a run of supposedly paranormal crimes where the a university professor nicknamed Galileo (with a personality much along the lines of Sherlock Holmes) was trapped (by his own personality quirk) into helping with police investigations. Episode after episode had him solving crimes that left almost no clues and confirming that the paranormal was not involved. In one episode he proved that warming experienced by people in a religious cult was not the result of the leader's spiritual power, but by microwaves. Conclusively proven - the cult leader's wife and others being responsible for the hoax. All done and dusted until the final scene, out of sight of Galileo and other parties, where the cult leader was actually performing the ceremony where warming was experienced by a fellow prisoner. The message there (seemingly) was that the existence of fakes doesn't disprove the existence of the genuine.

Scooby Doo on Zombie Island had a similar message. Much higher quality overall than most of the franchise too. I definitely recommend it.