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  • #31
    Originally posted by Stoic View Post

    I don't believe there is any equipment specifically designed to detect brain death.

    An EEG can show that someone is not brain dead, by detecting brain waves. But the absence of brain waves does not conclusively show that someone is brain dead.

    Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2518749/


    ...the positive response of EEG tests suggests functioning of the brain. Consequently, the patient in deep coma might show some EEG electroactivity, while the brain-dead patient will not.

    © Copyright Original Source



    (The rest of that article contains a lot of good information about brain death.)

    Also, "Doctors tried everything to save Thomas' life, even inducing hypothermia in an attempt to lower her body temperature and stimulate the brain."

    But when assessing a patient for brain death, "Patients must have a normal core body temperature because hypothermia can make it difficult to perform a brain death assessment."

    I would need to see good evidence that doctors (who knew what they were doing) actually assessed Velma Thomas as brain dead before concluding that she came back to life after really being dead.
    17 hours brain dead, but still hooked up to life support. I doubt hypothermia would be still a factor if it ever was.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      17 hours brain dead, but still hooked up to life support. I doubt hypothermia would be still a factor if it ever was.
      Again, you are misunderstanding what "brain dead" means.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Stoic View Post

        Again, you are misunderstanding what "brain dead" means.
        Cessation of all activities even in the brain stem is the general definition.

        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
          Cessation of all activities even in the brain stem is the general definition.
          Do you have any idea how it is diagnosed?

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Stoic View Post

            Do you have any idea how it is diagnosed?
            For a diagnosis of brain death:
            • a person must be unconscious and fail to respond to outside stimulation
            • a person's heartbeat and breathing can only be maintained using a ventilator
            • there must be clear evidence that serious brain damage has occurred and it cannot be cured.
            https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/brain-...t%20be%20cured
            “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Tassman View Post

              For a diagnosis of brain death:
              • a person must be unconscious and fail to respond to outside stimulation
              • a person's heartbeat and breathing can only be maintained using a ventilator
              • there must be clear evidence that serious brain damage has occurred and it cannot be cured.
              https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/brain-...t%20be%20cured
              And in this case, the person was brain dead for 17 hours before life support was turned off.

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                And in this case, the person was brain dead for 17 hours before life support was turned off.
                Do you have a source that says she was brain dead?

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                  And in this case, the person was brain dead for 17 hours before life support was turned off.
                  So, how long do you suggest waiting for the possibility of the person coming back to life after the life support has been switched off?
                  “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Tassman View Post

                    So, how long do you suggest waiting for the possibility of the person coming back to life after the life support has been switched off?
                    Rogue seems to think that you can tell if a person is brain dead before switching off life support.

                    In reality, switching off life support (in particular, ventilator support) is a key part of the test as to whether a person is brain dead.

                    Source: https://rc.rcjournal.com/content/58/3/532


                    ​​​​​​The drive to breathe in the setting of an intense ventilatory stimulus (ie, respiratory acidosis) is a critical marker of brainstem function. As a consequence, apnea testing is an important component of brain death assessment. This procedure requires close monitoring of a patient as all ventilator support is temporarily removed and Paco2 levels are allowed to rise. A “positive” test is defined by a total absence of respiratory efforts under these conditions.

                    © Copyright Original Source

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                      Rogue seems to think that you can tell if a person is brain dead before switching off life support.

                      In reality, switching off life support (in particular, ventilator support) is a key part of the test as to whether a person is brain dead.

                      Source: https://rc.rcjournal.com/content/58/3/532


                      ​​​​​​The drive to breathe in the setting of an intense ventilatory stimulus (ie, respiratory acidosis) is a critical marker of brainstem function. As a consequence, apnea testing is an important component of brain death assessment. This procedure requires close monitoring of a patient as all ventilator support is temporarily removed and Paco2 levels are allowed to rise. A “positive” test is defined by a total absence of respiratory efforts under these conditions.

                      © Copyright Original Source

                      Indeed.

                      Except rogue refers to the “Lazarus syndrome” whereby, in one instance, a woman allegedly revived and recovered 10 minutes after being taken off life support - despite being declared dead for “17 hours after her brain activity completely ceased”. Hence my query as to how long one should wait just in case the “Lazarus syndrome” manifests itself. It would be a tad scary for it to occur during the funeral.
                      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Shouldn't they do an EEG to see if there are any brainwaves?

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          Shouldn't they do an EEG to see if there are any brainwaves?
                          That is sometimes used as a confirmatory test.

                          https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24709179/

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                            That is sometimes used as a confirmatory test.

                            https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24709179/
                            Seems like the logical way to test for brain death. Every hospital would have an EEG and can easily hook one up to a patient.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                              Seems like the logical way to test for brain death. Every hospital would have an EEG and can easily hook one up to a patient.
                              Problem is, the EEG may tell you someone is brain dead when he isn't.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                                Problem is, the EEG may tell you someone is brain dead when he isn't.
                                More likely to show that someone isn't brain dead that a clinical test indicates is. You are measuring actual brain activity instead of inferring it from other tests.

                                Comment

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