Announcement

Collapse

Apologetics 301 Guidelines

If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you


This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

How can we know that God is?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

    Tell it to the scholars - I already know that. (The gospels also make no mention of the TARDIS)
    Nor indeed do they mention Jesus' bicycle. Your point?

    As with various others of a similar idiosyncratic persuasion you merrily come to your own conclusions and then contend that you alone know the exact date and everyone else is wrong.

    The short answer no one can know because these gospel accounts give no dates. The only evidence we have is that Pilate was in office for some ten years.

    Originally posted by tabibito View Post

    By date I mean month and day. Most scholars (that is, more than say otherwise) say that the day was the Day of Preparation, the fourteenth of Nisan. In later times, the Day of Preparation came to be termed Passover Eve.
    As the four gospel accounts are all contradictory, so no one can know the precise dates.

    Speculative suggestions exist, that is all. Furthermore, as there is no attested historical evidence of any Passover amnesties ever taking place this serves to add to the uncertainty as to the actual day.

    Originally posted by tabibito View Post

    Not when it comes to the day of crucifixion.
    See above. As we have no evidence of any historically attested amnesties we cannot be precise about the day.

    Originally posted by tabibito View Post

    What is plain from the texts that come down to us is that Jesus was not interred the day before he was crucified.
    You appear to be alleging that the majority of academics are making that claim. That demonstrates a remarkably arrogant arrogant position on your part - i.e. your contention is the only correct one.

    Originally posted by tabibito View Post

    30CE is favoured for the year.
    We have no evidence to support a definite date as to the year in which this event took place.

    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
    The day of preparation is the favoured day. A substantial minority questions or disputes those assessments.
    We have no idea as to the day because the only sources we have are the four canonical gospels and they are contradictory.

    "It ain't necessarily so
    The things that you're liable
    To read in the Bible
    It ain't necessarily so
    ."

    Sportin' Life
    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

      We have no idea as to the day because the only sources we have are the four canonical gospels and they are contradictory.
      Each of the gospels declares the day to be the Day of Preparation: that date is the fourteenth of Nisan.
      Luke declares the day to be the day that the Passover must be sacrificed: that date is the fourteenth of Nisan.
      Luke identifies the day that the Passover must be sacrificed as the first day of Unleaveneds: that date is the fourteenth of Nisan.
      Matthew likewise identifies the day as the day as the first day of Unleaveneds: that date is the fourteenth of Nisan.

      And there is you and your little agenda saying that "we" have no idea of the day.

      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
      .
      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
      Scripture before Tradition:
      but that won't prevent others from
      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
      of the right to call yourself Christian.

      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

      Comment


      • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

        Each of the gospels declares the day to be the Day of Preparation: that date is the fourteenth of Nisan.
        Luke declares the day to be the day that the Passover must be sacrificed: that date is the fourteenth of Nisan.
        Luke identifies the day that the Passover must be sacrificed as the first day of Unleaveneds: that date is the fourteenth of Nisan.
        Matthew likewise identifies the day as the day as the first day of Unleaveneds: that date is the fourteenth of Nisan.

        And there is you and your little agenda saying that "we" have no idea of the day.
        John's gospel contradicts the Synoptics. So which of those four is correct?
        "It ain't necessarily so
        The things that you're liable
        To read in the Bible
        It ain't necessarily so
        ."

        Sportin' Life
        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

          John's gospel contradicts the Synoptics. So which of those four is correct?
          At what point does John contradict the synoptics with regard to the day? According to John and to each of the synoptics, Jesus was buried on the day of preparation.
          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
          .
          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
          Scripture before Tradition:
          but that won't prevent others from
          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
          of the right to call yourself Christian.

          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

          Comment


          • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

            At what point does John contradict the synoptics with regard to the day? According to John and to each of the synoptics, Jesus was buried on the day of preparation.
            In John the time is defined. It happened early in the morning of the eve of Passover [14 Nisan]. The three Synoptics describe a gathering of the Sanhedrin in the morning of Passover day. [15 Nisan]
            "It ain't necessarily so
            The things that you're liable
            To read in the Bible
            It ain't necessarily so
            ."

            Sportin' Life
            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

              In John the time is defined. It happened early in the morning of the eve of Passover [14 Nisan]. The three Synoptics describe a gathering of the Sanhedrin in the morning of Passover day. [15 Nisan]
              So your claim is that the synoptics say the Sanhedrin gathered on the morning of the fifteenth, after which Jesus was buried in the evening of the fourteenth.
              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
              .
              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
              Scripture before Tradition:
              but that won't prevent others from
              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
              of the right to call yourself Christian.

              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

              Comment


              • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                So your claim is that the synoptics say the Sanhedrin gathered on the morning of the fifteenth, after which Jesus was buried in the evening of the fourteenth.
                Which accounts are correct? The Synoptics or John?
                "It ain't necessarily so
                The things that you're liable
                To read in the Bible
                It ain't necessarily so
                ."

                Sportin' Life
                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                  Which accounts are correct? The Synoptics or John?
                  Matt 27:59-62 Joseph took the body …. and laid it in his own new tomb … and the next day, the day after Preparation {{i.e. sometime after 6pm (time of date change) on the fourteenth}}, the chief priests and pharisees gathered together with Pilate.
                  Mark 15:42-46 It was preparation day, that is, the day before the Sabbath … Joseph bought a linen cloth {{
                  note: shopping can’t be done on a Sabbath; the 15th is a Sabbath}} … and laid him (Jesus) in a tomb
                  Luke 23: 53-54 he (Joseph) took the (Jesus’) body … and laid it in a tomb … It was Preparation day and the Sabbath was about to begin. {{
                  i.e. shortly before 6pm on the fourteenth}}
                  John 19:14,31,42

                  Given that all of them say the same ...
                  1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                  .
                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                  Scripture before Tradition:
                  but that won't prevent others from
                  taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                  of the right to call yourself Christian.

                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                    Matt 27:59-62 Joseph took the body …. and laid it in his own new tomb … and the next day, the day after Preparation {{i.e. sometime after 6pm (time of date change) on the fourteenth}}, the chief priests and pharisees gathered together with Pilate.
                    Mark 15:42-46 It was preparation day, that is, the day before the Sabbath … Joseph bought a linen cloth {{
                    note: shopping can’t be done on a Sabbath; the 15th is a Sabbath}} … and laid him (Jesus) in a tomb
                    Luke 23: 53-54 he (Joseph) took the (Jesus’) body … and laid it in a tomb … It was Preparation day and the Sabbath was about to begin. {{
                    i.e. shortly before 6pm on the fourteenth}}
                    John 19:14,31,42

                    Given that all of them say the same ...

                    Which accounts are correct concerning the day upon which the Jewish leaders interviewed Jesus and then met with Pilate? The Synoptics or John?
                    "It ain't necessarily so
                    The things that you're liable
                    To read in the Bible
                    It ain't necessarily so
                    ."

                    Sportin' Life
                    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post


                      Which accounts are correct concerning the day upon which the Jewish leaders interviewed Jesus and then met with Pilate? The Synoptics or John?
                      That occurred on the same day that Jesus was crucified and buried in all of the accounts, and during the daylight hours of the same day at that. The next day (i.e. the day after Jesus was buried, sometime after 6pm on the day that he was buried) the priests and pharisees met with Pilate to request that a guard be placed at the tomb.
                      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                      .
                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                      Scripture before Tradition:
                      but that won't prevent others from
                      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                      of the right to call yourself Christian.

                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                        That occurred on the same day that Jesus was crucified and buried in all of the accounts, and during the daylight hours of the same day at that. The next day (i.e. the day after Jesus was buried, sometime after 6pm on the day that he was buried) the priests and pharisees met with Pilate to request that a guard be placed at the tomb.
                        Good grief now you even have the time of the burial. And the nonsense about guards at the tomb!

                        The four gospel accounts contradict one another.
                        "It ain't necessarily so
                        The things that you're liable
                        To read in the Bible
                        It ain't necessarily so
                        ."

                        Sportin' Life
                        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                          Good grief now you even have the time of the burial. And the nonsense about guards at the tomb!

                          The four gospel accounts contradict one another.
                          That explains your problem. You couldn't pass a reading comprehension test designed for ten year olds. Unless the test answers don't interfere with your agenda, that is.
                          1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                          .
                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                          Scripture before Tradition:
                          but that won't prevent others from
                          taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                          of the right to call yourself Christian.

                          ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                            That explains your problem. You couldn't pass a reading comprehension test designed for ten year olds. Unless the test answers don't interfere with your agenda, that is.
                            You are making an allegation that is unsupported by the texts as they have come down to us. Either the Synoptics are correct or John is correct re the timing of the meal, the arrest, the interrogation, and the meeting with Pilate.

                            Which is it?
                            "It ain't necessarily so
                            The things that you're liable
                            To read in the Bible
                            It ain't necessarily so
                            ."

                            Sportin' Life
                            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                              You are making an allegation that is unsupported by the texts as they have come down to us. Either the Synoptics are correct or John is correct re the timing of the meal, the arrest, the interrogation, and the meeting with Pilate.

                              Which is it?
                              Luke -
                              It is the (14 Nisan) day that the Passover must be sacrificed.
                              The meal is eaten, Jesus is tried, executed, buried
                              It is the (14 Nisan) Day of Preparation.

                              There is no conflict with John on those issues.
                              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                              .
                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                              Scripture before Tradition:
                              but that won't prevent others from
                              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                              of the right to call yourself Christian.

                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                                Luke -
                                It is the (14 Nisan) day that the Passover must be sacrificed.
                                The meal is eaten, Jesus is tried, executed, buried
                                It is the (14 Nisan) Day of Preparation.

                                There is no conflict with John on those issues.
                                If there is no conflict explain why all three Synoptics write of preparations for the Passover. refer to the meal taking place in the evening [after dusk i.e. the next day - 15 Nisan] and Luke has Jesus telling his disciples that he has "eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you"?

                                Matthew 26.17-21
                                17 On the first day of Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Where do you want us to make the preparations for you to eat the Passover?” 18 He said, “Go into the city to a certain man and say to him, ‘The Teacher says, My time is near; I will keep the Passover at your house with my disciples.’ ” 19 So the disciples did as Jesus had directed them, and they prepared the Passover meal.

                                20 When it was evening, he took his place with the twelve disciples.

                                Mark 14.12-18
                                12 On the first day of Unleavened Bread, when the Passover lamb is sacrificed, his disciples said to him, “Where do you want us to go and make the preparations for you to eat the Passover?” 13 So he sent two of his disciples, saying to them, “Go into the city, and a man carrying a jar of water will meet you; follow him, 14 and wherever he enters, say to the owner of the house, ‘The Teacher asks: Where is my guest room where I may eat the Passover with my disciples?’ 15 He will show you a large room upstairs, furnished and ready. Make preparations for us there.” 16 So the disciples set out and went to the city and found everything as he had told them, and they prepared the Passover meal.

                                17When it was evening, he came with the twelve.

                                Luke 22. 7-15
                                7 Then came the day of Unleavened Bread, on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed. 8 So Jesus[b] sent Peter and John, saying, “Go and prepare the Passover meal for us that we may eat it.” 9 They asked him, “Where do you want us to make preparations for it?” 10 “Listen,” he said to them, “when you have entered the city, a man carrying a jar of water will meet you; follow him into the house he enters 11 and say to the owner of the house, ‘The teacher asks you, “Where is the guest room, where I may eat the Passover with my disciples?” ’ 12 He will show you a large room upstairs, already furnished. Make preparations for us there.” 13 So they went and found everything as he had told them, and they prepared the Passover meal. 14 When the hour came, he took his place at the table, and the apostles with him. 15 He said to them, “I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer,


                                "It ain't necessarily so
                                The things that you're liable
                                To read in the Bible
                                It ain't necessarily so
                                ."

                                Sportin' Life
                                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by whag, 04-22-2024, 06:28 PM
                                17 responses
                                100 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Sparko
                                by Sparko
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 04-17-2024, 08:31 AM
                                70 responses
                                392 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                                Started by Neptune7, 04-15-2024, 06:54 AM
                                25 responses
                                161 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Cerebrum123  
                                Started by whag, 04-09-2024, 01:04 PM
                                126 responses
                                683 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                                Started by whag, 04-07-2024, 10:17 AM
                                39 responses
                                252 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post tabibito  
                                Working...
                                X