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  • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    I do not "want" anything.

    I have cited what all three Synoptic authors wrote as those texts have come down to us, and two of them specifically refer to the Passover meal being taken in the evening. Luke writes "When the hour came"
    According to your interpretation, Matthew and Mark recorded the Passover meal being eaten in breach of scriptural warrant. Also, in common parlance, evening frequently continues until well after night-fall. Whether the common usage in English is also common usage in Koine Greek; I don't know. Either way, you're pinning a lot of faith on the particular interpretation of an ambiguous word.
    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
    .
    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
    Scripture before Tradition:
    but that won't prevent others from
    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
    of the right to call yourself Christian.

    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

    Comment


    • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

      According to your interpretation, Matthew and Mark recorded the Passover meal being eaten in breach of scriptural warrant.
      It is not my interpretation it is what the three texts state and two specifically refer to this meal taking place in the evening.

      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
      Also, in common parlance, evening frequently continues until well after night-fall.
      Which does not address the problem of how, after that evening meal, Jesus was arrested, interrogated, tried, executed and buried and all before 15 Nisan.


      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
      Whether the common usage in English is also common usage in Koine Greek; I don't know.
      .

      Mark 14.17 Καὶ ὀψίας γενομένης ἔρχεται μετὰ τῶν δώδεκα

      Matthew 26 20 Ὀψίας δὲ γενομένης ἀνέκειτο2 μετὰ τῶν δώδεκα μαθητῶν

      Ὀψίας - adjective GFS

      Definition: evening
      Usage: late, evening.

      "It ain't necessarily so
      The things that you're liable
      To read in the Bible
      It ain't necessarily so
      ."

      Sportin' Life
      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
        It is not my interpretation it is what the three texts state and two specifically refer to this meal taking place in the evening.
        According to your own citation below, that "specifically" is not necessarily so.

        Which does not address the problem of how, after that evening meal, Jesus was arrested, interrogated, tried, executed and buried and all before 15 Nisan.
        That argument won't float, and not only because your sources claim that the events, according to John, occurred on the fourteenth. The 14th starts at 6pm on the 13th, the 15th starts at 6pm on the fourteenth - immediately after Jesus was interred. With the Passover sacrifice conducted at the start of day, the same 24 hour period is available to the Synoptic accounts that is available to John. Mark's account shows Jesus arriving, it doesn't show when the meal was actually commenced. Matthew's account ... it would be hard to argue that it was not opsias when Jesus and the twelve were eating.

        Mark 14.17 Καὶ ὀψίας γενομένης ἔρχεται μετὰ τῶν δώδεκα

        Matthew 26 20 Ὀψίας δὲ γενομένης ἀνέκειτο2 μετὰ τῶν δώδεκα μαθητῶν

        Ὀψίας - adjective GFS

        Definition: evening
        Usage: late, evening.
        Yes - I had the wrong word, but it still doesn't change the fact that the right word, according to your citation, can as it is used, mean late.
        Last edited by tabibito; 07-01-2022, 08:44 AM.
        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
        .
        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
        Scripture before Tradition:
        but that won't prevent others from
        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
        of the right to call yourself Christian.

        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

        Comment


        • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

          According to your own citation below, that "specifically" is not necessarily so.
          Yes it is.

          Mark 14. When it was evening, he came with the twelve. 18 And when they had taken their places and were eating....

          Matthew 26 When it was evening, he took his place with the twelve disciples,[c]21 and while they were eating ...

          Originally posted by tabibito View Post
          That argument won't float, and not only because your sources claim that the events, according to John, occurred on the fourteenth. The 14th starts at 6pm on the 13th
          But this meal [according to the Synoptics] took place in the evening. And Luke specifically refers to Jesus' eagerness in sharing this Passover with his fellows.

          Originally posted by tabibito View Post
          , the 15th starts at 6pm on the fourteenth - immediately after Jesus was interred. With the Passover sacrifice conducted at the start of day, the same 24 hour period is available to the Synoptic accounts that is available to John. Mark's account shows Jesus arriving, it doesn't show when the meal was actually commenced.
          Yes it does. When it was evening, he came with the twelve. 18 And when they had taken their places and were eating.

          Originally posted by tabibito View Post
          Matthew's account ... it would be hard to argue that it was not opsias when Jesus and the twelve were eating.
          Which places the meal late on 14 Nisan.. Unless you have another explanation as to when they partook of this Passover meal?

          Originally posted by tabibito View Post

          Yes - I had the wrong word, but it still doesn't change the fact that the right word, according to your citation, can as it is used, mean late.
          So then explain how following this late evening meal and which the author of Luke has Jesus specifically referring to as a Passover meal, Jesus managed to be arrested, interrogated, tried, executed, and buried, and all before 15 Nisan.

          "It ain't necessarily so
          The things that you're liable
          To read in the Bible
          It ain't necessarily so
          ."

          Sportin' Life
          Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
            Yes it is.

            Mark 14. When it was evening, he came with the twelve. 18 And when they had taken their places and were eating....

            Matthew 26 When it was evening, he took his place with the twelve disciples,[c]21 and while they were eating ...

            But this meal [according to the Synoptics] took place in the evening. And Luke specifically refers to Jesus' eagerness in sharing this Passover with his fellows.

            Yes it does. When it was evening, he came with the twelve. 18 And when they had taken their places and were eating.

            Which places the meal late on 14 Nisan.. Unless you have another explanation as to when they partook of this Passover meal?



            So then explain how following this late evening meal and which the author of Luke has Jesus specifically referring to as a Passover meal, Jesus managed to be arrested, interrogated, tried, executed, and buried, and all before 15 Nisan.
            Mark 1:32 When evening came, after the sun had set

            Try again.
            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
            .
            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
            Scripture before Tradition:
            but that won't prevent others from
            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
            of the right to call yourself Christian.

            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

            Comment


            • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

              Mark 1:32 When evening came, after the sun had set

              Try again.
              Those goalposts must be quite heavy.

              Mark 1 32 Ὀψίας δὲ γενομένης, ὅτε ἔδυ ὁ ἥλιος, ἔφερον πρὸς αὐτὸν πάντας τοὺς κακῶς ἔχοντας καὶ τοὺς

              So how does the word Ὀψίας in that verse differ from its usage in Matthew 26 20?

              20 Ὀψίας δὲ γενομένης ἀνέκειτο μετὰ τῶν δώδεκα μαθητῶν.

              Not forgetting your remark:

              Matthew's account ... it would be hard to argue that it was not opsias when Jesus and the twelve were eating.
              "It ain't necessarily so
              The things that you're liable
              To read in the Bible
              It ain't necessarily so
              ."

              Sportin' Life
              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                Those goalposts must be quite heavy.

                Mark 1 32 Ὀψίας δὲ γενομένης, ὅτε ἔδυ ὁ ἥλιος, ἔφερον πρὸς αὐτὸν πάντας τοὺς κακῶς ἔχοντας καὶ τοὺς

                So how does the word Ὀψίας in that verse differ from its usage in Matthew 26 20?

                20 Ὀψίας δὲ γενομένης ἀνέκειτο μετὰ τῶν δώδεκα μαθητῶν.

                Not forgetting your remark:

                Matthew's account ... it would be hard to argue that it was not opsias when Jesus and the twelve were eating.
                Your interpretation has the Jews conducting a trial (prohibited after 3pm on the day preceding a Sabbath and through the Sabbath) and trotting around demanding that Jesus be crucified on a Sabbath.

                So - in German, what word translates as "evening?" Abend, is it not? ... Will you claim that Abend does not extend to include the early part of the night? Mark 1:32 Am Abend, es war nach Sonnenuntergang ... (so in that verse it was evening and after sundown)
                It is amazing how many languages use the same word for evening and night; why, even English will speak of "evening" in reference to 10pm. Seems obvious to me that altogether too much can be made of the word "evening."
                Last edited by tabibito; 07-01-2022, 10:17 AM.
                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                .
                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                Scripture before Tradition:
                but that won't prevent others from
                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                Comment


                • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                  Your interpretation has the Jews conducting a trial (prohibited after 3pm on the day preceding a Sabbath and through the Sabbath) and trotting around demanding that Jesus be crucified on a Sabbath.

                  So - in German, what word translates as "evening?" Abend, is it not? ... Will you claim that Abend does not extend to include the early part of the night?
                  Mark 1:32 Am Abend, es war nach Sonnenuntergang ... (so in that verse it was evening and after sundown)
                  It is amazing how many languages use the same word for evening and night; why, even English will speak of "evening" in reference to 10pm. Seems obvious to me that altogether too much can be made of the word "evening."
                  Excuse me I am not referring specifically to the trial. I am pointing out that the three Synoptics contradict John and your own contention that the arrest, interrogation, trial, execution, and burial all occurred before 15 Nisan. If this Passover meal to which Matthew, Mark, and Luke all refer took place as Matthew and Mark state in the evening, how did all those later events occur before 15 Nisan?

                  I am also still waiting for you to explain why the Greek Ὀψίας in Mark 1 32 in some way differs from its usage by the author of Matthew in 26 20. Both use the same word.

                  So on which evening did this meal take place? The evening of 13 Nisan - thereby removing any possibility that it could be a Passover meal? Or the evening of 14 Nisan?
                  "It ain't necessarily so
                  The things that you're liable
                  To read in the Bible
                  It ain't necessarily so
                  ."

                  Sportin' Life
                  Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                    Excuse me I am not referring specifically to the trial. I am pointing out that the three Synoptics contradict John and your own contention that the arrest, interrogation, trial, execution, and burial all occurred before 15 Nisan. If this Passover meal to which Matthew, Mark, and Luke all refer took place as Matthew and Mark state in the evening, how did all those later events occur before 15 Nisan?

                    I am also still waiting for you to explain why the Greek Ὀψίας in Mark 1 32 in some way differs from its usage by the author of Matthew in 26 20. Both use the same word.

                    So on which evening did this meal take place? The evening of 13 Nisan - thereby removing any possibility that it could be a Passover meal? Or the evening of 14 Nisan?
                    Oh dear - has it escaped your notice that in the Hebrew calendar, the day begins with the evening. In the case of a 14th, the day (14th) begins at (or immediately after) 6pm on the 13th.
                    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                    .
                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                    Scripture before Tradition:
                    but that won't prevent others from
                    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                    of the right to call yourself Christian.

                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                      Oh dear - has it escaped your notice that in the Hebrew calendar, the day begins with the evening. In the case of a 14th, the day (14th) begins at (or immediately after) 6pm on the 13th.
                      No.


                      "It ain't necessarily so
                      The things that you're liable
                      To read in the Bible
                      It ain't necessarily so
                      ."

                      Sportin' Life
                      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                        No.

                        So then, the sacrifice is conducted just after 6pm on the 14th, the beginning of the first hour thereof, the meal is eaten after the lamb is cooked (say ... 8pm start), Jesus is arrested sometime around 1am, taken to the high priest or Sanhedrin just after dawn, then on trial before Pilate and crucified about midday, dies at 3pm, gets buried around 5 pm. 1 hour or less before the end of the day. That happens to be necessary for John's record showing that the meal and the burial took place on the same day. Of course, the sacrifice and the lamb being eaten at dinner are not included in John's account.

                        Many of the stated times are no more than ball park figures: they are provided simply as a demonstration that the events could easily have occurred during the 24 hour period from sunset to sunset.

                        Matthew states the Jesus was interred on the day of Preparation, so does Mark, so does Luke, so does John. None of them leave room for Jesus to be buried on the day after the day of preparation, which each of them declares to be a Sabbath.
                        Last edited by tabibito; 07-01-2022, 12:02 PM.
                        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                        .
                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                        Scripture before Tradition:
                        but that won't prevent others from
                        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                        of the right to call yourself Christian.

                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                          So then, the sacrifice is conducted just after 6pm on the 14th
                          You previously wrote:

                          In the case of a 14th, the day (14th) begins at (or immediately after) 6pm on the 13th.


                          If the day starts just after 6 p.m. then "just after 6 p.m. on the 14th" is the 15th.

                          And if you are trying to suggest that the lamb was slaughtered at the beginning of 14 Nisan [our time around 8 p.m as you mention] and it was eaten in the early hours of 14 Nisan it was not a Passover meal as it did not occur in the evening. The Seder meal is eaten at the end of 14 Nisan not the beginning.

                          You are really trying to square the circle.

                          The fact is that the Synoptics contradict John. Therefore these four accounts cannot all be correct. The author of Mark is likewise wrong where he alleges the Sanhedrin met during the night at the high-priest's residence immediately following Jesus' arrest. Nowhere in the writings of Josephus and nowhere in rabbinical literature do we find any reference to the Sanhedrin ever holding a meeting in the residence of a high-priest.
                          "It ain't necessarily so
                          The things that you're liable
                          To read in the Bible
                          It ain't necessarily so
                          ."

                          Sportin' Life
                          Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                            You previously wrote:

                            In the case of a 14th, the day (14th) begins at (or immediately after) 6pm on the 13th.


                            If the day starts just after 6 p.m. then "just after 6 p.m. on the 14th" is the 15th.
                            6 pm - post meridian - six hours after the sun is as close to directly over head as it will get on the day, the date changes. Just after 6pm of the thirteenth is the fourteenth. 6:00 pm Nisan 13 - one minute later is Nisan 14.

                            And if you are trying to suggest that the lamb was slaughtered at the beginning of 14 Nisan [our time around 8 p.m as you mention] and it was eaten in the early hours of 14 Nisan it was not a Passover meal as it did not occur in the evening. The Seder meal is eaten at the end of 14 Nisan not the beginning.
                            The Seder meal is not eaten at the end of the 14th in the Jewish rite, it is eaten after nightfall on the 15th. more than 6 hours after sun-high on the fourteenth.

                            The fact is that the Synoptics contradict John.
                            The synoptics state the Jesus was buried on the same day that is nominated by John.

                            Therefore these four accounts cannot all be correct. The author of Mark is likewise wrong where he alleges the Sanhedrin met during the night at the high-priest's residence immediately following Jesus' arrest. Nowhere in the writings of Josephus and nowhere in rabbinical literature do we find any reference to the Sanhedrin ever holding a meeting in the residence of a high-priest.
                            Neither do we find in the Bible any reference to the Sanhedrin convening in the High Priest's house. You really do need better quality commentators.
                            Last edited by tabibito; 07-01-2022, 01:04 PM.
                            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                            .
                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                            Scripture before Tradition:
                            but that won't prevent others from
                            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                            of the right to call yourself Christian.

                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                              And if you are trying to suggest that the lamb was slaughtered at the beginning of 14 Nisan [our time around 8 p.m as you mention]
                              Noticed that a bit too late: What I actually wrote was: "So then, the sacrifice is conducted just after 6pm on the 14th."

                              And what I should have written was "the sacrifice is conducted on the 14th, just after 6pm on the 13th."


                              Last edited by tabibito; 07-01-2022, 01:43 PM.
                              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                              .
                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                              Scripture before Tradition:
                              but that won't prevent others from
                              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                              of the right to call yourself Christian.

                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                                6 pm - post meridian - six hours after the sun is as close to directly over head as it will get on the day, the date changes. Just after 6pm of the thirteenth is the fourteenth. 6:00 pm Nisan 13 - one minute later is Nisan 14.
                                Then "just after 6 p.m. on the 14th" is the 15th.


                                Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                                The Seder meal is not eaten at the end of the 14th in the Jewish rite, it is eaten after nightfall on the 15th.
                                It is eaten at the end of 14 Nisan i.e. the beginning of 15 Nisan. According to this

                                https://www.chabad.org/holidays/pass...-Nissan-14.htm

                                So what is this “Passover” on the 14th? It is not the Festival of Matzahs, since that only begins that evening (since the Jewish days begin at nightfall). Rather, it is the Passover offering, which was slaughtered on the 14th and eaten that night—the 15th—together with matzah at the onset of the Festival of Matzahs. Thus, as far as sacrifices are concerned, the night after a sacrifice is brought is an extension of the day it is brought.5

                                Therefore, when it comes to the celebration of the Passover sacrifice, while it was eaten on the 15th, it was considered to be the same day as the 14th.


                                So once again if the Synoptics are correct and this was a Passover Seder taken as 14 Nissan ends and 15 Nissan begins where does that leave your contention that everything happened on 14 Nissan?

                                Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                                The synoptics state the Jesus was buried on the same day that is nominated by John.
                                How given the timing of this Passover meal that Jesus is described partaking of with his disciples? Your four accounts do not add up.

                                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                                Neither do we find in the Bible any reference to the Sanhedrin convening in the High Priest's house. You really do need better quality commentators.
                                Mark 14 verses 53-54 They took Jesus to the high priest, and all the chief priests, the elders, and the scribes were assembled. 54 Peter had followed him at a distance, right into the courtyard of the high priest...

                                Mark 14 verse 55 Now the chief priests and the whole council were looking for testimony against Jesus to put him to death, but they found none.

                                "It ain't necessarily so
                                The things that you're liable
                                To read in the Bible
                                It ain't necessarily so
                                ."

                                Sportin' Life
                                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                                Comment

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