Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria
View Post
Announcement
Collapse
Apologetics 301 Guidelines
If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less
How can we know that God is?
Collapse
X
-
1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
-
Originally posted by tabibito View Post
According to your interpretation, Matthew and Mark recorded the Passover meal being eaten in breach of scriptural warrant.
Originally posted by tabibito View PostAlso, in common parlance, evening frequently continues until well after night-fall.
Originally posted by tabibito View PostWhether the common usage in English is also common usage in Koine Greek; I don't know.
Mark 14.17 Καὶ ὀψίας γενομένης ἔρχεται μετὰ τῶν δώδεκα
Matthew 26 20 Ὀψίας δὲ γενομένης ἀνέκειτο2 μετὰ τῶν δώδεκα μαθητῶν
Ὀψίας - adjective GFS
Definition: evening
Usage: late, evening.
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
-
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostIt is not my interpretation it is what the three texts state and two specifically refer to this meal taking place in the evening.
Which does not address the problem of how, after that evening meal, Jesus was arrested, interrogated, tried, executed and buried and all before 15 Nisan.
Mark 14.17 Καὶ ὀψίας γενομένης ἔρχεται μετὰ τῶν δώδεκα
Matthew 26 20 Ὀψίας δὲ γενομένης ἀνέκειτο2 μετὰ τῶν δώδεκα μαθητῶν
Ὀψίας - adjective GFS
Definition: evening
Usage: late, evening.
Last edited by tabibito; 07-01-2022, 08:44 AM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
-
Originally posted by tabibito View Post
According to your own citation below, that "specifically" is not necessarily so.
Mark 14. When it was evening, he came with the twelve. 18 And when they had taken their places and were eating....
Matthew 26 When it was evening, he took his place with the twelve disciples,[c]21 and while they were eating ...
Originally posted by tabibito View PostThat argument won't float, and not only because your sources claim that the events, according to John, occurred on the fourteenth. The 14th starts at 6pm on the 13th
Originally posted by tabibito View Post, the 15th starts at 6pm on the fourteenth - immediately after Jesus was interred. With the Passover sacrifice conducted at the start of day, the same 24 hour period is available to the Synoptic accounts that is available to John. Mark's account shows Jesus arriving, it doesn't show when the meal was actually commenced.
Originally posted by tabibito View PostMatthew's account ... it would be hard to argue that it was not opsias when Jesus and the twelve were eating.
Originally posted by tabibito View Post
Yes - I had the wrong word, but it still doesn't change the fact that the right word, according to your citation, can as it is used, mean late.
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
-
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostYes it is.
Mark 14. When it was evening, he came with the twelve. 18 And when they had taken their places and were eating....
Matthew 26 When it was evening, he took his place with the twelve disciples,[c]21 and while they were eating ...
But this meal [according to the Synoptics] took place in the evening. And Luke specifically refers to Jesus' eagerness in sharing this Passover with his fellows.
Yes it does. When it was evening, he came with the twelve. 18 And when they had taken their places and were eating.
Which places the meal late on 14 Nisan.. Unless you have another explanation as to when they partook of this Passover meal?
So then explain how following this late evening meal and which the author of Luke has Jesus specifically referring to as a Passover meal, Jesus managed to be arrested, interrogated, tried, executed, and buried, and all before 15 Nisan.
Try again.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
-
Originally posted by tabibito View Post
Mark 1:32 When evening came, after the sun had set
Try again.
Mark 1 32 Ὀψίας δὲ γενομένης, ὅτε ἔδυ ὁ ἥλιος, ἔφερον πρὸς αὐτὸν πάντας τοὺς κακῶς ἔχοντας καὶ τοὺς
So how does the word Ὀψίας in that verse differ from its usage in Matthew 26 20?
20 Ὀψίας δὲ γενομένης ἀνέκειτο μετὰ τῶν δώδεκα μαθητῶν.
Not forgetting your remark:
Matthew's account ... it would be hard to argue that it was not opsias when Jesus and the twelve were eating."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
-
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
Those goalposts must be quite heavy.
Mark 1 32 Ὀψίας δὲ γενομένης, ὅτε ἔδυ ὁ ἥλιος, ἔφερον πρὸς αὐτὸν πάντας τοὺς κακῶς ἔχοντας καὶ τοὺς
So how does the word Ὀψίας in that verse differ from its usage in Matthew 26 20?
20 Ὀψίας δὲ γενομένης ἀνέκειτο μετὰ τῶν δώδεκα μαθητῶν.
Not forgetting your remark:
Matthew's account ... it would be hard to argue that it was not opsias when Jesus and the twelve were eating.
So - in German, what word translates as "evening?" Abend, is it not? ... Will you claim that Abend does not extend to include the early part of the night? Mark 1:32 Am Abend, es war nach Sonnenuntergang ... (so in that verse it was evening and after sundown)
It is amazing how many languages use the same word for evening and night; why, even English will speak of "evening" in reference to 10pm. Seems obvious to me that altogether too much can be made of the word "evening."
Last edited by tabibito; 07-01-2022, 10:17 AM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
-
Originally posted by tabibito View Post
Your interpretation has the Jews conducting a trial (prohibited after 3pm on the day preceding a Sabbath and through the Sabbath) and trotting around demanding that Jesus be crucified on a Sabbath.
So - in German, what word translates as "evening?" Abend, is it not? ... Will you claim that Abend does not extend to include the early part of the night?
Mark 1:32 Am Abend, es war nach Sonnenuntergang ... (so in that verse it was evening and after sundown)
It is amazing how many languages use the same word for evening and night; why, even English will speak of "evening" in reference to 10pm. Seems obvious to me that altogether too much can be made of the word "evening."
I am also still waiting for you to explain why the Greek Ὀψίας in Mark 1 32 in some way differs from its usage by the author of Matthew in 26 20. Both use the same word.
So on which evening did this meal take place? The evening of 13 Nisan - thereby removing any possibility that it could be a Passover meal? Or the evening of 14 Nisan?"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
-
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
Excuse me I am not referring specifically to the trial. I am pointing out that the three Synoptics contradict John and your own contention that the arrest, interrogation, trial, execution, and burial all occurred before 15 Nisan. If this Passover meal to which Matthew, Mark, and Luke all refer took place as Matthew and Mark state in the evening, how did all those later events occur before 15 Nisan?
I am also still waiting for you to explain why the Greek Ὀψίας in Mark 1 32 in some way differs from its usage by the author of Matthew in 26 20. Both use the same word.
So on which evening did this meal take place? The evening of 13 Nisan - thereby removing any possibility that it could be a Passover meal? Or the evening of 14 Nisan?1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
-
Originally posted by tabibito View Post
Oh dear - has it escaped your notice that in the Hebrew calendar, the day begins with the evening. In the case of a 14th, the day (14th) begins at (or immediately after) 6pm on the 13th.
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
-
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostNo.
Many of the stated times are no more than ball park figures: they are provided simply as a demonstration that the events could easily have occurred during the 24 hour period from sunset to sunset.
Matthew states the Jesus was interred on the day of Preparation, so does Mark, so does Luke, so does John. None of them leave room for Jesus to be buried on the day after the day of preparation, which each of them declares to be a Sabbath.Last edited by tabibito; 07-01-2022, 12:02 PM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
-
Originally posted by tabibito View Post
So then, the sacrifice is conducted just after 6pm on the 14th
In the case of a 14th, the day (14th) begins at (or immediately after) 6pm on the 13th.
If the day starts just after 6 p.m. then "just after 6 p.m. on the 14th" is the 15th.
And if you are trying to suggest that the lamb was slaughtered at the beginning of 14 Nisan [our time around 8 p.m as you mention] and it was eaten in the early hours of 14 Nisan it was not a Passover meal as it did not occur in the evening. The Seder meal is eaten at the end of 14 Nisan not the beginning.
You are really trying to square the circle.
The fact is that the Synoptics contradict John. Therefore these four accounts cannot all be correct. The author of Mark is likewise wrong where he alleges the Sanhedrin met during the night at the high-priest's residence immediately following Jesus' arrest. Nowhere in the writings of Josephus and nowhere in rabbinical literature do we find any reference to the Sanhedrin ever holding a meeting in the residence of a high-priest.
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
-
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostYou previously wrote:
In the case of a 14th, the day (14th) begins at (or immediately after) 6pm on the 13th.
If the day starts just after 6 p.m. then "just after 6 p.m. on the 14th" is the 15th.
And if you are trying to suggest that the lamb was slaughtered at the beginning of 14 Nisan [our time around 8 p.m as you mention] and it was eaten in the early hours of 14 Nisan it was not a Passover meal as it did not occur in the evening. The Seder meal is eaten at the end of 14 Nisan not the beginning.
The fact is that the Synoptics contradict John.
Therefore these four accounts cannot all be correct. The author of Mark is likewise wrong where he alleges the Sanhedrin met during the night at the high-priest's residence immediately following Jesus' arrest. Nowhere in the writings of Josephus and nowhere in rabbinical literature do we find any reference to the Sanhedrin ever holding a meeting in the residence of a high-priest.
Last edited by tabibito; 07-01-2022, 01:04 PM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
-
Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostAnd if you are trying to suggest that the lamb was slaughtered at the beginning of 14 Nisan [our time around 8 p.m as you mention]
And what I should have written was "the sacrifice is conducted on the 14th, just after 6pm on the 13th."
Last edited by tabibito; 07-01-2022, 01:43 PM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
-
Originally posted by tabibito View Post
6 pm - post meridian - six hours after the sun is as close to directly over head as it will get on the day, the date changes. Just after 6pm of the thirteenth is the fourteenth. 6:00 pm Nisan 13 - one minute later is Nisan 14.
Originally posted by tabibito View Post
The Seder meal is not eaten at the end of the 14th in the Jewish rite, it is eaten after nightfall on the 15th.
https://www.chabad.org/holidays/pass...-Nissan-14.htm
So what is this “Passover” on the 14th? It is not the Festival of Matzahs, since that only begins that evening (since the Jewish days begin at nightfall). Rather, it is the Passover offering, which was slaughtered on the 14th and eaten that night—the 15th—together with matzah at the onset of the Festival of Matzahs. Thus, as far as sacrifices are concerned, the night after a sacrifice is brought is an extension of the day it is brought.5
Therefore, when it comes to the celebration of the Passover sacrifice, while it was eaten on the 15th, it was considered to be the same day as the 14th.
So once again if the Synoptics are correct and this was a Passover Seder taken as 14 Nissan ends and 15 Nissan begins where does that leave your contention that everything happened on 14 Nissan?
Originally posted by tabibito View Post
The synoptics state the Jesus was buried on the same day that is nominated by John.
Originally posted by tabibito View PostNeither do we find in the Bible any reference to the Sanhedrin convening in the High Priest's house. You really do need better quality commentators.
Mark 14 verse 55 Now the chief priests and the whole council were looking for testimony against Jesus to put him to death, but they found none.
"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
Comment
Related Threads
Collapse
Topics | Statistics | Last Post | ||
---|---|---|---|---|
Started by whag, 03-27-2024, 03:01 PM
|
39 responses
186 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by whag
Yesterday, 03:32 PM
|
||
Started by whag, 03-17-2024, 04:55 PM
|
21 responses
132 views
0 likes
|
Last Post 03-21-2024, 12:15 PM | ||
Started by whag, 03-14-2024, 06:04 PM
|
80 responses
428 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by tabibito
Yesterday, 12:33 PM
|
||
Started by whag, 03-13-2024, 12:06 PM
|
45 responses
305 views
1 like
|
Last Post 03-17-2024, 07:19 AM | ||
Started by rogue06, 12-26-2023, 11:05 AM
|
406 responses
2,517 views
2 likes
|
Last Post
by tabibito
Yesterday, 05:49 PM
|
Comment