How can we know that God is?

[Alien]

Do not let that small offshoot of Christianity influence your decision to be a Christian.

There are a couple of things that I need to set straight.

I seem to have given the impression that I am going through this now. Also some nice people seem to think I need protecting. That's much appreciated, but I don't. By the way Whag, the way you write doesn't seem to fit with your description of "agnostic". I would have expected some version of faith. None of my business? that's OK.

In fact this happened around 15 years ago. I had been an atheist for a long time, but was somehow fascinated by religious belief, more perhaps than one would expect from someone that has decided that God doesn't exist. Anyway, as already described I attempted to contact "god" (with no expectation of what that might be). My reasoning was as already described, basically if you want a true answer to something ask an expert, and who could be a better expert on god than god himself.

To my surprise and pleasure things happened in my life that I decided were an answer to my request. So, I went forward, but as you may have gathered, I tend to take a scientific approach to things, which didn't include accepting the beliefs of any particular religion uncritically. My position at the time was I had contacted some kind of "power" (best word I can think of) which would help me in my life. To that end I asked for guidance and knowledge and cautiously moved forward. The analogy I used at the time was that it was like stepping into a deep fog, where my vision was limited to a few feet. I could step forward into that area and hopefully see a bit further, and so on. As you can imagine that required a lot of trust. Based on my experience so far, that trust seemed justified as the results all seemed to be good. At that point, I made a conscious decision that I suppose could be labelled "faith". Unless I received strong indications to the contrary, I would assume that whatever I was in contact with was benevolent.

I remained indecisive about my next step. Should I attend a Christian church, or look into other religions, or continue on my own. Eventually I joined the local Methodist church. Things went well for some time and then I got divorced, and spent two years on my own, followed by my current relationship, which is now about 12 years old. Somewhere there my spiritual feeling kind of faded away. I stopped going to church, which I now found boring. My feeling of the presence of god disappeared. I am somewhere back in a sort of atheist position, though not the way I was. I probably don't think about religion a lot these days. It's as if something got settled in my search for "god". Most people will relate to this example. Have you been desperately in love with someone who you were with for a while and then it all ended for some reason? Then, years later, you almost never even think about him/her and no longer have any feelings, one way or the other? That's similar to how I feel about that strange period of my life. It was good, it was real at the time, but it's gone.

A few weeks back I wondered if Theologyweb was still around. I read a few posts and got sucked back in. I do like discussions with intelligent people who disagree but don't get nasty. This brought a lot of it back, and I thought I would tell my story in order to get people's thoughts on 1) my approach to finding god and 2) any opinions on what happened, at a general level.

My next post will address something completely different.

[whag]

What is a miracle, really, other than an event that happened? And if it's at least as well attested as any other contemporary event, what rational reason is there to doubt it?

Many thousands witnessed the miracle at Fatima.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun

[Alien]

As I suspected might happen, there is a lot of rehashing of arguments for and against the truth of Christianity going on. That's not what I intended. I've considered using my authority as OP to ask you to stop it, but on reflection I'm not going to do that. Have fun, but I'm going to resist the sometimes extreme temptation to get into it.

Here's what I ask. Respect "Seeker's" conclusions about various reasons to be Christian. Given his conclusions, consider how you would advise him to proceed in his quest. In other words, don't tell him that the Universe really is enough evidence for God. He doesn't think so. He may be wrong but his decision was made honestly, and not because he "hates God" or anything like that. You might also like to consider how he feels when you tell him that God doesn't answer requests. That was pretty much his last try and he'll probably give up if it doesn't work.

Here's another question to consider, which will be on his mind at this stage. He says "It doesn't seem fair that I should be judged and found wanting after I have made an honest attempt to find god. Are there no points for an best attempt?"

And another. Why would God hide from us and still say he wants a relationship with us? Is salvation a game of "Trivial Pursuits"?

[seer]

And another. Why would God hide from us and still say he wants a relationship with us? Is salvation a game of "Trivial Pursuits"?

You assume that if God presented Himself in a more tangible way that the man would fall to His knees in adoration. He just as well may find the encounter loathsome. Thereby bringing a greater judgement down on his head - as Christ said, to whom much is given much is required. Perhaps His coyness saves many from a harsher fate.

[Alien]

You assume that if God presented Himself in a more tangible way that the man would fall to His knees in adoration. He just as well may find the encounter loathsome. Thereby bringing a greater judgement down on his head - as Christ said, to whom much is given much is required. Perhaps His coyness saves many from a harsher fate.

As many do, you limit the power of the God that you say is so powerful. Surely he can appear (if that is the chosen method) in a way that people wouldn't find loathsome. Isn't a "still small voice" mentioned somewhere in the Bible?

Just as an aside, I don't think falling to knees and adoration is appropriate. That idea I'll bet came from modelling God on the potentates of the time, who did insist on such stuff. My view is that God would be so powerful and self-sufficient that he would have no need for ego enhancing worship. Simple respect would do I would think. As a poor analogy, imagine you have an ant farm. You are fond of the ants and care for them and make sure they have what they need. Would you want them to bow down to you in worship? Would you punish them if they didn't? To put it more simply, I don't see how we can do anything for God. It's all the other way round.

[whag]

You assume that if God presented Himself in a more tangible way that the man would fall to His knees in adoration. He just as well may find the encounter loathsome. Thereby bringing a greater judgement down on his head - as Christ said, to whom much is given much is required. Perhaps His coyness saves many from a harsher fate.

One cannot argue at the same time that intimate proof was the only thing that inspired the disciples’ persistence of faith while at the same time argue that signs and wonders aren’t persuasive to depraved human beings, hence their rarity. There’s something odd about that.

[seer]

As many do, you limit the power of the God that you say is so powerful. Surely he can appear (if that is the chosen method) in a way that people wouldn't find loathsome. Isn't a "still small voice" mentioned somewhere in the Bible?

Yet when God walked on the earth in the most lowly and modest fashion, men took Him, beat Him and hung Him on a cross.

Just as an aside, I don't think falling to knees and adoration is appropriate.

Thank you, you made my point. And our worship has nothing to do with His ego, but our rightly understanding His sovereign claim on our lives... His position juxtaposed to ours. What He is - King and Creator...

[seer]

One cannot argue at the same time that intimate proof was the only thing that inspired the disciples’ persistence of faith while at the same time argue that signs and wonders aren’t persuasive to depraved human beings, hence their rarity. There’s something odd about that.

I can argue it because Christ argued it (Luke 16:19-31). Some men harden their hearts - even in the face of the miraculous. The disciples did not do this...

[Stoic]

What is a miracle, really, other than an event that happened?

You think a miracle is no big deal?

Some people think they are special somehow.

[tabibito]

One cannot argue at the same time that intimate proof was the only thing that inspired the disciples’ persistence of faith while at the same time argue that signs and wonders aren’t persuasive to depraved human beings, hence their rarity. There’s something odd about that.

True that.

1Cor 2:4-5

[Alien]

Yet when God walked on the earth in the most lowly and modest fashion, men took Him, beat Him and hung Him on a cross.

I don't see how that has anything to do with God communicating (or not) with us individually, as Seeker asked. Did you think I was expecting some human to come to the door and give me a message? I already have that at the local church if I want it.

[Alien]

Personally, I have never heard of a non-Christian asking for a special revelation from God and actually getting it. Doesn't mean it has never happened, but every story like yours that I've ever read has the exact same ending. And I suspect the reason is that it is arrogant to tell God, "The evidence you have seen fit to give the rest of the world is not good enough. Now, here's what I want you to do for me..."

A question to ask yourself: Why are you even asking in the first place? Do you have a sincere desire to repent and serve God? Then just do it. Pick up the Bible, ask God to help you understand his revealed will and wisdom, and start reading.

If not, then why are you asking? Idle curiosity? Surely you would not expect the almighty creator of the universe to satisfy your whims.

Perhaps if you can figure out your own motives for seeking a special revelation, then you might understand why God hasn't responded.

That's actually a good point. In fact I spent some time with the wording, making sure that I didn't make demands, spoke respectfully, didn't specify what form the answer should take, or put a time limit on it. I realize that you don't try to order God around.

My motivation? Certainly not idle curiosity, though I was curious, as anyone would be. First and foremost, I genuinely wanted to settle the question of the existence of God. If I got no reply I would have continued with my life on the assumption that God didn't exist or didn't want to communicate with me (the same thing in effect). There was no point reading the Bible before establishing if there was anything to read about. There is really no difference in principle between this and a more mundane situation. Let's say there is a house next door to you that seems to be empty, but some of your neighbors claim to have seen movement in it. If the answer really matters to you, what would you do? How about knocking on the door and seeing if someone answers?

Incidentally, I don't think that an almighty God can be "bothered" or offended by a respectful approach. He would have infinite bandwidth available for communication, would he not? And if he loves us so much why would he turn away a lost soul that just wants guidance?

[tabibito]

Personally, I have never heard of a non-Christian asking for a special revelation from God and actually getting it.

I am one, and it is safe to assume that I am not the only one. The differences between the scant few who receive such a response and the many who do not is unknown to me - but it is certain that the reason is most assuredly not the petitioner's arrogance.

[seer]

I don't see how that has anything to do with God communicating (or not) with us individually, as Seeker asked. Did you think I was expecting some human to come to the door and give me a message? I already have that at the local church if I want it.

That was in response to your point about God approaching us in a more gentle fashion, "still small voice". Yet He did do exactly that with the incarnation. And men, many men, perhaps even the majority, still hated Him. Again don't assume that if He spoke, even mildly, that you would not still reject Him (thereby incurring greater judgement on yourself). And you already made it clear that you would have no intention of worshiping Him. So you have your answer.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

The resurrection of Jesus is at least as well attested as any other event we accept as true in the ancient world, and is better attested than most.

It is not attested from accredited and extraneous historical sources. What Paul alleges in his letters that he saw is somewhat different from the later texts of empty tombs, young men/angels and earthquakes.