Wall's thread in Biblical Ethics 301

[shunyadragon]

The Wall posted an interesting thread in Biblical Ethics 301 called 'My Predicament' that I am not normally allowed to post in. It is an interesting probem that needs to addressed from different religious perspectives.

I am in a bind.

My family does not believe and as my faith grows stronger I inevitably come into contact with their unbelief. It has lead my family into screaming matches. It is horrible.

When they see I have or am reading the bible they say I believe a myth. When I say I want to read Narnia they say "Aslan is Jesus thats it." They have said I am insane.

I want to leave at some point. Get my own house. Get a job. Find a church.

I need some prayer. I need some advice.
If I stay I am like a candle to be snuffed out. If I leave my grandparents will take care of me but my family will be even more antoginistic


I want to see my family come to faith.
I am unsure of what to do.

I believe this is a two street issue between many Christians, and atheists and other non-believers.

Do you respect the beliefs of the atheists(?) or agnostics in your family? You have become a Christian, and the literature of Christianity often aggressively ridicules atheists, and seriously questions and often condemns non-Christian beliefs. Likewise attempts at conversion and subtle and not so subtle threats have serious over tones in these relationships such as:

I would kindly suggest that you spend more time thinking about what God WILL do when you stand before Him.

My experience of a non-Christian in a Christian family has been at best very uncomfortable. My sister (agnostic pagan) and I (Baha'i) as non-Christians have been subtly and not so subtly avoided, shunned, and generally not welcome. Previously before making our choices our family was very close, but after making our alternate choices things went down hill.

By the way in our family no shouting matches, nor aggressive confrontations.

[mossrose]

The Wall posted an interesting thread in Biblical Ethics 301 called 'My Predicament' that I am not normally allowed to post in. It is an interesting probem that needs to addressed from different religious perspectives.



I believe this is a two street issue between many Christians, and atheists and other non-believers.

Do you respect the beliefs of the atheists(?) or agnostics in your family? You have become a Christian, and the literature of Christianity often aggressively ridicules atheists, and seriously questions and often condemns non-Christian beliefs. Likewise attempts at conversion and subtle and not so subtle threats have serious over tones in these relationships such as:



My experience of a non-Christian in a Christian family has been at best very uncomfortable. My sister (agnostic pagan) and I (Baha'i) as non-Christians have been subtly and not so subtly avoided, shunned, and generally not welcome. Previously before making our choices our family was very close, but after making our alternate choices things went down hill.

By the way in our family no shouting matches, nor aggressive confrontations.

Here's the thing, shuny.

The first, and really only allegiance, to a believer, is to God.

Jesus Himself said that we are to love Him more than parents or children, in Matthew 10:37. This does not negate respect for our families, nor love for them.

You and all other unbelievers simply do not understand that there is only ONE belief that is valid as a "path to God", and that is through Christ. So of course all those other beliefs are condemned by God, and so by extension by believers. However, WE do not condemn YOU for your unbelief, God does.

I am sorry your family treats you the way it does. They are wrong to do so. But their allegiance to Christ must come first.

[Carrikature]

Here's the thing, shuny.

The first, and really only allegiance, to a believer, is to God.

Jesus Himself said that we are to love Him more than parents or children, in Matthew 10:37. This does not negate respect for our families, nor love for them.

You and all other unbelievers simply do not understand that there is only ONE belief that is valid as a "path to God", and that is through Christ. So of course all those other beliefs are condemned by God, and so by extension by believers. However, WE do not condemn YOU for your unbelief, God does.

I am sorry your family treats you the way it does. They are wrong to do so. But their allegiance to Christ must come first.

This is all fluff in light of the bolded. You can't condemn behavior while effectively claiming no actual obligation to act otherwise.

[mikewhitney]

The Wall posted an interesting thread in Biblical Ethics 301 called 'My Predicament' that I am not normally allowed to post in. It is an interesting problem that needs to addressed from different religious perspectives.

How will other religious perspectives find eternal life apart from the Source?

I believe this is a two street issue between many Christians, and atheists and other non-believers.

Do you respect the beliefs of the atheists(?) or agnostics in your family? You have become a Christian, and the literature of Christianity often aggressively ridicules atheists, and seriously questions and often condemns non-Christian beliefs. Likewise attempts at conversion and subtle and not so subtle threats have serious over tones in these relationships such as:

What part of the atheist belief is to be respected? If you mean that leeway should be given so they may discover the truth from where they are-- yes that makes sense. There is often aggressive reaction against the harsh atheist and that may be overdone but the situation may require some strong assertiveness by the Christian Apologist. Indeed many atheists try to proclaim the higher ground on reason-- but they often are comparing themselves to Christians least able (or interested) in intellectual pursuits. On the other hand, Christians need to remember Solomon's advice "Wisdom makes knowledge acceptable." So if you are asking for wisdom among all Christians, especially those in TWEB, that is certainly decent.

[Cow Poke]

This is all fluff in light of the bolded. You can't condemn behavior while effectively claiming no actual obligation to act otherwise.

I don't know - my oldest daughter rebelled, and I knew that yelling at her or "dissing" her was not the solution. We condemned her bad choices, but she always knew we still loved her. I remember clearly the night she called - she had been gone for 5 months, and we didn't even know if she was alive - and she was sobbing and asked "Daddy, can I come home?"

My world famous T-web famous leftist atheist liberal Jewish lesbian coworker knew that I condemned her lifestyle, but I was always cordial and professional to her. MUCH more than she was to me, at first. I think, after a period of a year or so of treating me like dirt, she realized I was still polite and civil to her, and she eased up. She now considers herself a very good friend of mine.

[rogue06]

This is all fluff in light of the bolded. You can't condemn behavior while effectively claiming no actual obligation to act otherwise.

Disagree. You can pledge your allegiance to someone without being a jerk to everyone else. I mean when someone gets married they are essentially pledging an allegiance to their spouse. Do you think that means that they are free to those they aren't married to with contempt?

[Carrikature]

I don't know - my oldest daughter rebelled, and I knew that yelling at her or "dissing" her was not the solution. We condemned her bad choices, but she always knew we still loved her. I remember clearly the night she called - she had been gone for 5 months, and we didn't even know if she was alive - and she was sobbing and asked "Daddy, can I come home?"

My world famous T-web famous leftist atheist liberal Jewish lesbian coworker knew that I condemned her lifestyle, but I was always cordial and professional to her. MUCH more than she was to me, at first. I think, after a period of a year or so of treating me like dirt, she realized I was still polite and civil to her, and she eased up. She now considers herself a very good friend of mine.

I fully agree. That's not what I meant by condemning behavior, though.

[Carrikature]

Disagree. You can pledge your allegiance to someone without being a jerk to everyone else. I mean when someone gets married they are essentially pledging an allegiance to their spouse. Do you think that means that they are free to those they aren't married to with contempt?

Can. You don't have to, though. Do you think that people who get married don't then abandon their families? It happened in my father's family. It's happening in my wife's family.

You can do a lot of things. The point isn't what you can or can't do. Clearly you can still act charitably towards those you disagree with. What you can't do is tell someone else that they're doing it wrong while simultaneously justifying their actions. That's effectively what mossy is doing.

[mossrose]

Can. You don't have to, though. Do you think that people who get married don't then abandon their families? It happened in my father's family. It's happening in my wife's family.

You can do a lot of things. The point isn't what you can or can't do. Clearly you can still act charitably towards those you disagree with. What you can't do is tell someone else that they're doing it wrong while simultaneously justifying their actions. That's effectively what mossy is doing.

I haven't said anything of the sort. You can still love someone both in word and deed while absolutely not approving of or justifying or condoning their actions.

[seer]

You can still love someone both in word and deed while absolutely not approving of or justifying or condoning their actions.

Of course you can, I do it everyday with myself.

To quote CS Lewis:

[Carrikature]

I haven't said anything of the sort. You can still love someone both in word and deed while absolutely not approving of or justifying or condoning their actions.

3/3 not getting it.

It's not about loving someone without liking or condoning what they're doing.

It's about saying "you owe them nothing" while simultaneously saying "you should treat them differently". The first eliminates any grounds for the second, yet it's exactly what you've said in Post #2.

[Jedidiah]

3/3 not getting it.

It's not about loving someone without liking or condoning what they're doing.

It's about saying "you owe them nothing" while simultaneously saying "you should treat them differently". The first eliminates any grounds for the second, yet it's exactly what you've said in Post #2.

And you talk about not getting it.

[siam]

Yusuf Ali: And, out of kindness, lower to them the wing of humility, and say: "My Lord! bestow on them thy Mercy even as they cherished me in childhood." ---Quran surah 17 verse 24

The Quranic view---as I understand it---is that one cannot worship God if one cannot cherish and respect our parents. This is because the attitude of a worshipper (of One God) requires gratefulness/to be grateful. Parents sacrifice much to nurture and protect their children and God also gives blessings to his creation. A kafir is one who is ungrateful because of arrogance, pride, ego. Difference of opinion are a test of our tolerance, maturity, compassion and mercy and also of the level of our capacity to "worship" God.
If "right belief" is to create benefit for humanity---then it has to start with the family---if our "beliefs" cannot bring peace and harmony to our family---it cannot to humanity either.......which then would make it "wrong belief"...

[shunyadragon]

Yusuf Ali: And, out of kindness, lower to them the wing of humility, and say: "My Lord! bestow on them thy Mercy even as they cherished me in childhood." ---Quran surah 17 verse 24

The Quranic view---as I understand it---is that one cannot worship God if one cannot cherish and respect our parents. This is because the attitude of a worshipper (of One God) requires gratefulness/to be grateful. Parents sacrifice much to nurture and protect their children and God also gives blessings to his creation. A kafir is one who is ungrateful because of arrogance, pride, ego. Difference of opinion are a test of our tolerance, maturity, compassion and mercy and also of the level of our capacity to "worship" God.
If "right belief" is to create benefit for humanity---then it has to start with the family---if our "beliefs" cannot bring peace and harmony to our family---it cannot to humanity either.......which then would make it "wrong belief"...

This all fine and nice, but the problem of respect and tolerance of non-believers in the Islamic world is far far worse than in the Christian world. Flowery phrases from the Quran, like selective phrases from the Bible do not resolve the problem. There is definitely a problem in Christian and Islamic societies as to what "right belief" is and the relationship with non-believers, but considering the separation of religion and state in the west and the prevalence of constitutional protections, minority beliefs have considerable protection which is lacking in the Islamic world.

My reference to Wall's 'problem' with relationship with his atheist(?) relatives is that the problem is a two way street and Wall was not necessarily the victim.

[Cow Poke]

Yusuf Ali: And, out of kindness, lower to them the wing of humility, and say: "My Lord! bestow on them thy Mercy even as they cherished me in childhood." ---Quran surah 17 verse 24

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