Originally posted by robrecht
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Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
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What was God doing?
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Originally posted by Sparko View Postlet's turn it around. If time came into existence when the singularity happened at the big bang, how long did it just sit there not exploding? why didn't it explode sooner? It is a nonsense question just like the OP
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Originally posted by guacamole View PostIf anything existed, even God, then there was in some sense time. There would be a "before" to creation else we argue that God 'started' at the beginning of Creation, which we wouldn't argue.
God was creating, is creating, and will be creating.
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Originally posted by Leonhard View PostNo, he's clearly saying that you can apply the term, and implying that some sort of nebulous contradiction exists, and that anyway Christians are somehow obligated to provide an account of what happened before, or God does not exist or something.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostWell if god the creator didn't exist before his creation, then how did he create it?
In fact I'd go further and say God causes the universe to exist at all points in time, and its maintained in existence by His one constant act.
When we talk about God existing 'before time', we're definitely *not* talking about that in a temporal sense. You're insisting that 'before' should here only be as 'in time'. If all you're concerned about is a quibble about terminology, then we can switch to terms you can better stomach, but there isn't really a problem here.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostThis is the quote you referenced: "If time itself came into existence, then it makes no sense to ask what came before time." The inference being, that there is no before time. Now I know the argument is that god exists outside of time, but no matter how you look at it, if you are going to argue that god exists, and that he created the universe, then even if he exists outside of that universe of time, he has to have had to exist, in some sense, before he created it. If your argument is that there is no before time then how do you square that circle?
You assert that if one is going to argue that god exists, and that he created the universe, then even if he exists outside of that universe of time, he has to have had to exist, in some sense, before he created it. For your own parameters of the argument to be coherent, you seem to require some sense of 'before' that cannot be taken in its normal, temporal sense.
Originally posted by JimL View PostWell if god the creator didn't exist before his creation, then how did he create it?
The real issue here is that you do not believe in an atemporal origin of the temporal universe, even aside from any question of God, as we have already seen here. This issue would be much more interestingly discussed between you and Hawking or Vilenken, if you are up to it, rather than with theists who have no more expertise in theoretical physics and cosmology than yourself.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by JimL View PostSo your argument would be that time was not created along with the creation of universe, that time, like god himself, is past eternal.
They are not things; they are descriptions of potential change, change, and relationship.
Doesn't the notion of time and creation being past eternal change the whole christian conception of god and his relationship to this universe and human beings as being perfect and special?
I think also that the notion of god as being in time changes the whole dynamic, makes him one with the universe, thus destroying the concept of god and creator altogether.
Sorry if I'm coming across as overly abrupt but I'm on my phone and philosophy on my phone is frustrating."Down in the lowlands, where the water is deep,
Hear my cry, hear my shout,
Save me, save me"
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Originally posted by JimL View PostFor those of you who believe that the universe was created 14 billion years ago by an eternally existing deity, I'm wondering what it is you think that deity was doing for that eternal duration prior to that creation?Originally posted by Leonhard View Post2) Time came into being with the Act of Creation, and in that case the question 'What did God do before He created the universe' commits the same mistake as asking 'What's south of the South Pole?'
Maybe the correct answer to where they came from is "up"; the guy's army came from outer space, and they just happened to arrive on the South Pole. The point is that this plausibly correct answer discards the cardinal directions system, and it's a category mistake to assert that where they came from is "farther South". To try and keep framing the "Where were they?" question in cardinal-directions terms is incoherent.
And this is the same stuff. 'Wherever' God was/existed 'prior' to Creation, it was simply outside our space-time framework and to think of it in temporal terms is nonsensical, just as thinking an army's location previous to arrival to a planet's South Pole in terms of North-South terms is nonsensical.
After reading through that "Misuse of science" thread, I thought both sides would be clear on this...?We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore on Christ's behalf: 'Be reconciled to God!!'- 2 Corinthians 5:20.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostFor those of you who believe that the universe was created 14 billion years ago by an eternally existing deity, I'm wondering what it is you think that deity was doing for that eternal duration prior to that creation?
Well, if God made infinite creations with no first creation (John 1:3), how would that change the problem you are having with not knowing what God did prior to creating this creation?
". . . Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God. . . ." -- Psalm 90:2.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by Leonhard View PostWe've already said He exists timelessly with the creation of the universe. There's no time at which God does not exist, and you don't have to be temporally prior to something to be a cause. In fact in physics all physical causes are entirely localized, even temporally, their continuously evolving result of their effects exist simultaneously with the causes. If an electron is accelerated its physics doesn't wait a discrete amount of time before bremsstrahlung radiation occurs, that happens immediately. By analogy, God caused the universe to exist simultaneously with its beginning.
In fact I'd go further and say God causes the universe to exist at all points in time, and its maintained in existence by His one constant act.
When we talk about God existing 'before time', we're definitely *not* talking about that in a temporal sense. You're insisting that 'before' should here only be as 'in time'. If all you're concerned about is a quibble about terminology, then we can switch to terms you can better stomach, but there isn't really a problem here.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostExcuse me, but please explain if you will what is meant by a timeless entity, and how it can be both timeless and changeless and also be responsible for change. Even if I concede to you the argument that cause and effect occur simultaneously, that simultanaity takes place in time and is the result of the continuity of previous actions through time. So how does that work with a cause that is itself timeless and changeless? How do you explain the eternal timeless nature of an entity, i.e an entity that doesn't change, alongside of your explanation of the change that must take place in that entity with its creation? It seems to be an argument based on the idea that the universe and time are as eternal as its cause because no change takes place in the cause. It seems to me that you can't have it both ways, either the universe and time are past eternal, and so in need of no cause, or there was a change that took place in its cause when it created, and change implies that the cause would itself be subject to time.
By the way, does this understanding of God's causal relationship with creation even allow for God to do anything at all within time in creation? A miracle? A prophecy? Do these things change God too, in your opinion?We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore on Christ's behalf: 'Be reconciled to God!!'- 2 Corinthians 5:20.
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Hi JimL, your demands are kinda fractured so I'll try to make brief responses to them individually, since I doubt you expect a full answer to them. Otherwise tell me which of these you'd rather focus on.
Originally posted by JimL View Post... please explain ... what is meant by a timeless entity,
and how it can be both timeless and changeless and also be responsible for change.
Even if I concede to you the argument that cause and effect occur simultaneously, that simultanaity takes place in time and is the result of the continuity of previous actions through time.
So how does that work with a cause that is itself timeless and changeless?
How do you explain the eternal timeless nature of an entity,
alongside of your explanation of the change that must take place in that entity with its creation
It seems to be an argument based on the idea that the universe and time are as eternal as its cause
It seems to me that you can't have it both ways, either the universe and time are past eternal, and so in need of no cause
The universe changes, something of pure actuality must exist, and this we call God.
The topic of the argument from motion, and argument from existence are some of my favorites.Last edited by Leonhard; 11-06-2016, 05:38 PM.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostExcuse me, but please explain if you will what is meant by a timeless entity, . . .Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
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Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
A being unlimited by time, subject to no change in relation to anything that is undergoing change. Since God is pure actuality, having no potentiality by necessity of being the Prime Mover, He cannot undergo change. Therefore He is immutable. A corollary shows that God is the only being that has this property.
On the contrary, even a past-infinite universe would still be in need of a cause for its existence. There is no such thing as existential inertia. If the universe has a beginning, then of course, God is the cause of that beginning. If the universe had no beginning, then God would be the cause of it being in existence. The argument from motion makes no assumptions about temporal history, separating it from the cosmological arguments. It's based on the nature of motion, and what is required for anything to change.
The universe changes, something of pure actuality must exist, and this we call God.
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