Interpretation the Trinity is polytheistic

[shunyadragon]

So you say.

So I say? I am sticking with the science, which reflects the information that atheists consider in their conclusions. Unfortunately you are generalizing stereotyping the atheist perspective, ehich is a strong aggressive theist perspective as to what other people believe.

Even, if for argument sake, we say that evolution is not happenstance and that man was inevitable - in the atheist position, it is still meaningless and all human effort is absurd - again in the vastness and endlessness of time and space man, humanity, does not even register. Not so in the Christian perspective.

Your stereotyping atheists.

Saying evolution is happenstance and humans are inevitable is two extreme hypothetical different conclusions in the spectrum of possibilities of what we know of evolution. In the history of the evolution on earth we have determined that given similar environments we have extremely similar results in the animal and plant life repeated over the history of life on earth.

There is no consensus conclusion here that human efforts are absurd as an alternative to the Theistic view. The concept of 'human effort being meaningless and absurd' is subjective theist conclusion and not shared by most atheists and agnostics.

[shunyadragon]

Then pleas point me to that famous book, 'Canine Moral Behavior.' As I said it is only analogous.

Again, my dog's love is not the same as the compassionate care, i.e. agape, of Christianity. Let's not travel to far into absurdity:+}

Canines are poor and limited in examples of the intelligent and rational behavior in higher animals..

[thormas]

So I say? I am sticking with the science, which reflects the information that atheists consider in their conclusions. Unfortunately you are generalizing stereotyping the atheist perspective, ehich is a strong aggressive theist perspective as to what other people believe.



Your stereotyping atheists.

Saying evolution is happenstance and humans are inevitable is two extreme hypothetical different conclusions in the spectrum of possibilities of what we know of evolution. In the history of the evolution on earth we have determined that given similar environments we have extremely similar results in the animal and plant life repeated over the history of life on earth.

There is no consensus conclusion here that human efforts are absurd as an alternative to the Theistic view. The concept of 'human effort being meaningless and absurd' is subjective theist conclusion and not shared by most atheists and agnostics.

You're slipping Shuny and getting a bit aggressive.

[thormas]

So I say? I am sticking with the science, which reflects the information that atheists consider in their conclusions. Unfortunately you are generalizing stereotyping the atheist perspective, ehich is a strong aggressive theist perspective as to what other people believe.



Your stereotyping atheists.

Saying evolution is happenstance and humans are inevitable is two extreme hypothetical different conclusions in the spectrum of possibilities of what we know of evolution. In the history of the evolution on earth we have determined that given similar environments we have extremely similar results in the animal and plant life repeated over the history of life on earth.

There is no consensus conclusion here that human efforts are absurd as an alternative to the Theistic view. The concept of 'human effort being meaningless and absurd' is subjective theist conclusion and not shared by most atheists and agnostics.

I have not been aggressive at all - and I have been respectful throughout. I simply am stating my position (very generally) and disagreeing with the atheist position..........which in spite of everything you have said about science, evolution, man, etc...........still results in utter meaninglessness and matters not in the timelessness of the universe.

I'm not stereotyping anything - simply taking the position to its logical conclusion. I'm not after consensus conclusions (whatever that means), if this is all there is..............it mears nothing in or to the universe. All you love, all anybody loves, does or learns is for naught: it is not remembered and it impacts nothing in the universe. Sisyphus meant nothing: his efforts in vain, his work absurd in the face of utter meaninglessness. To state otherwise is an exercise in hubris.

This is not, however, the panentheistic stance or belief.


It is not a theistic subjective conclusion. BTW do remember Joe and his great little family from the late 1800s? Or how about Tobias from the 3rd C CE? Or any of the slave who died with Spartacus? Or the many that were stolen from Africa? They are as unknown to you as to the universe and have no impact on anything. So too our 'famous' people: do you think they mattered billions of years ago or will in another 10 billion years or in another, uncreated as yet, galaxy?

[thormas]

Canines are poor and limited in examples of the intelligent and rational behavior in higher animals..

However the point is made: analogous behavior.

[shunyadragon]

I have not been aggressive at all - and I have been respectful throughout. I simply am stating my position (very generally) and disagreeing with the atheist position..........which in spite of everything you have said about science, evolution, man, etc...........still results in utter meaninglessness and matters not in the timelessness of the universe.

I'm not stereotyping anything - simply taking the position to its logical conclusion. I'm not after consensus conclusions (whatever that means), if this is all there is..............it mears nothing in or to the universe. All you love, all anybody loves, does or learns is for naught: it is not remembered and it impacts nothing in the universe. Sisyphus meant nothing: his efforts in vain, his work absurd in the face of utter meaninglessness. To state otherwise is an exercise in hubris.

This is not, however, the panentheistic stance or belief.


It is not a theistic subjective conclusion. <snip>?

It is not a scientific conclusion that evolution nor the nature of our physical existence is happenstance, random, nor by chance. It is theistic distortion of statistics and science.

Aggressive in terms of atheists and Theistic misinformation concerning evolution.

Your view toward atheists is not a logical conclusion, and yes you have made statements stereotyping atheist view.

[thormas]

It is not a scientific conclusion that evolution nor the nature of our physical existence is happenstance, random, nor by chance. It is theistic distortion of statistics and science.

Aggressive in terms of atheists and Theistic misinformation concerning evolution.

Your view toward atheists is not a logical conclusion, and yes you have made statements stereotyping atheist view.

Here is a scientific conclusion, ".......nature is random and unpredictable. That, most physicists would say, is the unavoidable lesson of quantum theory. Before quantum theory, physicists could believe in determinism, the idea of a world unfolding with precise mathematical certainty. ..." So much for conclusions, unless we go with this one.

But, for discussion sake, even if we say it is not happenstance, we can still say it is without purpose at least for the individual man and humanity itself. Again, what does any of it matter? All the loves, the learning, the friend and family - it means nothing in the great scheme of things. And this I hold is the logical conclusion of atheism.

Not agressive, not illogical, not stereotyping. and definitely no misinformation on theism or better, panentheism.


All is purposeless and without meaning - despite the efforts of man or humanity as a whole.

[shunyadragon]

Here is a scientific conclusion, ".......nature is random and unpredictable. That, most physicists would say, is the unavoidable lesson of quantum theory. Before quantum theory, physicists could believe in determinism, the idea of a world unfolding with precise mathematical certainty. ..." So much for conclusions, unless we go with this one.

We are not talking about Quantum Mechanics, which even the above is misleading concerning Quantum Mechanics. Our macro world is NOT Random an unpredictable. You continue to misrepresent science with a Theist agenda.

But, for discussion sake, even if we say it is not happenstance, we can still say it is without purpose at least for the individual man and humanity itself. Again, what does any of it matter? All the loves, the learning, the friend and family - it means nothing in the great scheme of things. And this I hold is the logical conclusion of atheism.

It is not logical conclusion of atheism. The only logical conclusion of of atheists is they do not believe in Gods.

Not aggressive, not illogical, not stereotyping. and definitely no misinformation on theism or better, panentheism.

It is illogical and stereotyping, because all atheists do not believe as you describe them

All is purposeless and without meaning - despite the efforts of man or humanity as a whole.

this is not view of all atheists, in fact not most atheists. You need to ask atheists, and you will get different answers.

Source: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/12/06/10-facts-about-atheists/

6Where do atheists find meaning in life? Like a majority of Americans, most atheists mentioned “family” as a source of meaning when Pew Research Center asked an open-ended question about this in a 2017 survey. But atheists were far more likely than Christians to describe hobbies as meaningful or satisfying (26% vs. 10%). Atheists also were more likely than Americans overall to describe finances and money, creative pursuits, travel, and leisure activities as meaningful. Not surprisingly, very few U.S. atheists (4%) said they found life’s meaning in spirituality.

© Copyright Original Source

[thormas]

We are not talking about Quantum Mechanics, which even the above is misleading concerning Quantum Mechanics. Our macro world is NOT Random an unpredictable. You continue to misrepresent science with a Theist agenda.



It is not logical conclusion of atheism. The only logical conclusion of of atheists is they do not believe in Gods.



It is illogical and stereotyping, because all atheists do not believe as you describe them




this is not view of all atheists, in fact not most atheists. You need to ask atheists, and you will get different answers.

Source: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/12/06/10-facts-about-atheists/

6Where do atheists find meaning in life? Like a majority of Americans, most atheists mentioned “family” as a source of meaning when Pew Research Center asked an open-ended question about this in a 2017 survey. But atheists were far more likely than Christians to describe hobbies as meaningful or satisfying (26% vs. 10%). Atheists also were more likely than Americans overall to describe finances and money, creative pursuits, travel, and leisure activities as meaningful. Not surprisingly, very few U.S. atheists (4%) said they found life’s meaning in spirituality.

© Copyright Original Source

I have no agenda. I am simply having a discussion about the atheist position brought to its conclusion.
I disagree with your comment on atheism.
I know many don't believe that as evident in the ongoing discussion I have been having - yet that is the ramification of such a belief. It is neither illogical nor stereotyping.

I have no doubt that atheists find meaning in family or hobbies, finances, money, travel and on and on. Yet such meaning is meaningless in the span and scope of the universe. Such meaning, for small number of years, given the endlessness of the time and space, has no impact on any of it. It is not noticed, it changes nothing, it means nothing. And when this reality is looked squarely in the eye, any such hobbies, families, travel and finances or golf are understandable but also absurd. In such a view, man and humanity is Sisyphus.



This is not the Christian panentheistic position

[shunyadragon]

I have no agenda. I am simply having a discussion about the atheist position brought to its conclusion.
I disagree with your comment on atheism.
I know many don't believe that as evident in the ongoing discussion I have been having - yet that is the ramification of such a belief. It is neither illogical nor stereotyping.

I have no doubt that atheists find meaning in family or hobbies, finances, money, travel and on and on. Yet such meaning is meaningless in the span and scope of the universe. Such meaning, for small number of years, given the endlessness of the time and space, has no impact on any of it. It is not noticed, it changes nothing, it means nothing. And when this reality is looked squarely in the eye, any such hobbies, families, travel and finances or golf are understandable but also absurd. In such a view, man and humanity is Sisyphus.



This is not the Christian panentheistic position

If you notice in the survey different beliefs were surveyed. Nonetheless atheists find meaning in life.

Your unfortunate non-scientific view of nature being happenstance, random or by chance is common Cristian view whether you call it theist or panentheistic.

[thormas]

If you notice in the survey different beliefs were surveyed. Nonetheless atheists find meaning in life.

Your unfortunate non-scientific view of nature being happenstance, random or by chance is common Cristian view whether you call it theist or panentheistic.

Any of us can 'find' or make meaning..........but what is meaningful about the individual's X number of years at the end? In the timelessness of the all,, what about that one's extremely short human life is meaningful or means anything, something in and to the universe?. Please tell you don't think it's hobbies, golf or finances.

In all this you have never said if life has purpose (other than hobbies and travel) or what that purpose is.

[Tassman]

I'm saying that man's intelligence and consciousness of self make him unique or special.

The fact is that “man's intelligence and consciousness of self” make him no more than highly intelligent primates. - the most advanced form of self-aware, conscious animals in the current hierarchy of the animal kingdom – a position once occupied by our predecessors Homo erectus and several other hominid species until they became extinct. In short, our intelligence and consciousness are common to many humans, archaic and modern. This does not make them “unique or special” - just cleverer..

I will check your reference but I don't really regard animals as having moral behavior in the sense that man does; there could be analogous behavior but it is not the 'moral behavior.'

Yes, it's "moral behavior". Many of the higher social animals such as chimpanzees have innate empathy, cooperation and reciprocity — which are the essence of morality – as demonstrated by Dr. Frans de Waal and others. Your comparison elsewhere with dogs, as compared with the higher mammals, is invalid.

It's a belief statement because no one has proof/evidence that there is or is not life beyond death: science can investigate a dead body but they can't examine anything beyond that. Death is a fact; life or no life after that death is a matter of belief.

It's not just a "matter of belief". No one has “proof/evidence” that there IS life beyond death for Homo sapiens. What about Neanderthals and the other equally intelligent, self-aware archaic humans – are they still eternally living beyond their extinction as a species in some hominid heaven? There is no good reason to think so. Just as there is no good reason to think Homo sapiens live "beyond death".in some sort of eternal zone.

That's the point: satisfaction and fulfillment are meaningless, signifying nothing in the universe and make no difference. Whether one is satisfied or fulfilled or not - matters not.

No. Satisfaction and fulfillment in communal living is how we’ve evolved to be as social animals. We have NOT evolved to be creatures of destiny making a difference in this vast universe in which we live, as you seem to be implying.

You keep going to evidence when I have simply stated that this is a belief statement, both the Christians and the atheist position. No one can prove there is or is not God, no one can prove or disprove 'eternal life' and on and on.

No one can “prove” that there are or are not fairies, centaurs, elves, or gnomes either but, as with deities, they are highly improbable.

I don't think I said I know as I have tried to be consistent saying this is belief. But it is not wishful thinking, it is ..........belief, religion belief that begins with the faith statement that God IS.

Yes, it is the very definition of wishful thinking. Namely, “the attribution of reality to what one wishes to be true or the tenuous justification of what one wants to believe” - Merriam-Webster.

[thormas]

The fact is that “man's intelligence and consciousness of self” make him no more than highly intelligent primates. - the most advanced form of self-aware, conscious animals in the current hierarchy of the animal kingdom – a position once occupied by our predecessors Homo erectus and several other hominid species until they became extinct. In short, our intelligence and consciousness are common to many humans, archaic and modern. This does not make them “unique or special” - just cleverer..



Yes, it's "moral behavior". Many of the higher social animals such as chimpanzees have innate empathy, cooperation and reciprocity — which are the essence of morality – as demonstrated by Dr. Frans de Waal and others. Your comparison elsewhere with dogs, as compared with the higher mammals, is invalid.



It's not just a "matter of belief". No one has “proof/evidence” that there IS life beyond death for Homo sapiens. What about Neanderthals and the other equally intelligent, self-aware archaic humans – are they still eternally living beyond their extinction as a species in some hominid heaven? There is no good reason to think so. Just as there is no good reason to think Homo sapiens live "beyond death".in some sort of eternal zone.



No. Satisfaction and fulfillment in communal living is how we’ve evolved to be as social animals. We have NOT evolved to be creatures of destiny making a difference in this vast universe in which we live, as you seem to be implying.



No one can “prove” that there are or are not fairies, centaurs, elves, or gnomes either but, as with deities, they are highly improbable.



Yes, it is the very definition of wishful thinking. Namely, “the attribution of reality to what one wishes to be true or the tenuous justification of what one wants to believe” - Merriam-Webster.

Well we disagree as I see man as unique.

But you have made my case: there have been other hominid species and except for anthropologists, they are not remembered, they mean nothing in the scope of a universe that continues while they have simply been wiped from the face of the earth; a universe that took no notice of these hominids. So too (eventually) for you, all your loved one and as Shunhy mentioned all those many hobbyists, travel buffs and finance guys. Nada. And in spite of what passes for meaning in their lives - their lives like those of homo erectus mean nothing in the limitlessness of time and space in the universe.

[shunyadragon]

Any of us can 'find' or make meaning..........but what is meaningful about the individual's X number of years at the end? In the timelessness of the all,, what about that one's extremely short human life is meaningful or means anything, something in and to the universe?. Please tell you don't think it's hobbies, golf or finances.

In all this you have never said if life has purpose (other than hobbies and travel) or what that purpose is.

I don't tell you nor atheists, nor do I speculate on other's sense of what is meaningful in our lives. I am more interested in relationships in the meaning we give our lives in humanity as a whole and consciousness of the universal. This is the separation that leads to violence that is exemplified by fundamentalist Christianity and radical Islam. Judaism, Christianity and Islam are extremely tribal religions in terms their relationship to those who believe differently, which is a significant problem throughout our history.

[thormas]

I don't tell you nor atheists, nor do I speculate on other's sense of what is meaningful in our lives. I am more interested in relationships in the meaning we give our lives in humanity as a whole and consciousness of the universal. This is the separation that leads to violence that is exemplified by fundamentalist Christianity and radical Islam. Judaism, Christianity and Islam are extremely tribal religions in terms their relationship to those who believe differently, which is a significant problem throughout our history.

It is not what is meaningful in ones's life like hobbies, travel, golf, movies, and on and on - the question is what is the purpose, what is the meaning, if any, of the individual man or humanity as a whole?

You are still talking about the 'meaning we give our lives' when I am asking about the meaning of man.

You seem to not have an answer, neither does the atheist.

Christianity (and other religions) does.