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If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
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Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Interpretation the Trinity is polytheistic
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Originally posted by JimL View PostForget what you're talking about already? Believe that the idea that Jesus was born of a virgin came to Islam directly from Allah?
I think the contents of the Qur'an has the fingerprints of Muhammad all over it. I think Muhammad heard that Jesus was born of a virgin from Christians in his area and he inserted it into the Qur'an as revelation from Allah.Last edited by Christian3; 06-20-2020, 07:59 AM.
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Originally posted by siam View PostWhat I meant to ask was ---some Christian ideas might be traced to Hellenization or Judaic (influences) but if a concept of "sex is bad/sin" exists in Christianity, what would be its historic precedent culture/theology...if any?
However, what does Paul really mean by lustful passionDe civitate Dei, Against Faustus, On Marriage and Concupisence, and Against Julian of Eclanum].
Augustine was not alone in his views on sex and marriage and with Jerome and Ambrose rounded on the late fourth century bishop Jovinian [340-405 CE] who, having become alarmed in the way the ascetical movement was developing in the West with its detrimental views on marriage and sexuality had written a book arguing that both the ascetics and those who were married had equal spiritual status within the church. He also expressed doubts over the perpetual virginal state of the virgin Mary. His views were enough for Ambrose to condemn him at the Synod of Milan and for Augustine, Pelagius, and Jerome to make (often extremely vitriolic) attacks on him. The protests succeeded in securing Jovinian Imperial exile and the burning of his books."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Not that passion in sex has anything to do with the birth of Jesus, or even the Trinity, but ok...Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette
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Originally posted by DesertBerean View PostNot that passion in sex has anything to do with the birth of Jesus, or even the Trinity, but ok..."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostPaul was clearly against uncontrolled passion. In I Thessalonians 4:2-5 he makes it clear that For you know what instructions we gave you through the Lord Jesus. 3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from fornication; each one of you know how to control your own body[b] in holiness and honour, 5 not with lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God.
However, what does Paul really mean by lustful passionDe civitate Dei, Against Faustus, On Marriage and Concupisence, and Against Julian of Eclanum].
Augustine was not alone in his views on sex and marriage and with Jerome and Ambrose rounded on the late fourth century bishop Jovinian [340-405 CE] who, having become alarmed in the way the ascetical movement was developing in the West with its detrimental views on marriage and sexuality had written a book arguing that both the ascetics and those who were married had equal spiritual status within the church. He also expressed doubts over the perpetual virginal state of the virgin Mary. His views were enough for Ambrose to condemn him at the Synod of Milan and for Augustine, Pelagius, and Jerome to make (often extremely vitriolic) attacks on him. The protests succeeded in securing Jovinian Imperial exile and the burning of his books.Last edited by Christian3; 06-20-2020, 10:21 AM.
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Originally posted by siam View PostWhat I meant to ask was ---some Christian ideas might be traced to Hellenization or Judaic (influences) but if a concept of "sex is bad/sin" exists in Christianity, what would be its historic precedent culture/theology...if any?
But I really don't think the idea of Mary always a virgin came as much from the idea of sex being bad as it was about the question of sin itself. The argument was how the sinless Son of God could be born from a woman who herself was a sinner? This is what many of the early Christians were grappling with, despite the prophecy that the Messiah would be born of the seed of the woman.Last edited by DesertBerean; 06-20-2020, 10:52 AM.Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostThe Bible is not a reliable historical source because it does not meet the standard criteria of source reliability used by historians, namely 'historical critical methodology'.Last edited by 37818; 06-20-2020, 11:35 AM.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by Esther View PostGod is not depicted as one God in the Bible. God is one in the sense that God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are in harmony. One in thought and purpose for example. So 3 God's then can be one in unity.
Isaiah 44:6, ". . . Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. . . ."
Isaiah 43:10-11, ". . . understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. . . ."
1 Timothy 2:5-6, ". . . For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. . . .". . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostThe concept that he was God incarnate is a much later theological construct. You are retrojecting fourth century Hellenistic beliefs back to the early years of the first century and attributing such beliefs to a group of observant Jews for whom such concepts would be both completely abhorrent and in violation of the first two commandments.
Jesus and his followers were pious and observant Jews. They did not worship anthropomorphic gods.
It is in the writings of Paul that are to be found concepts that would eventually
Cite Scriptures to backup your opinion.
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostThe historial New Testament documents predate the 'Historical Critical Methodology' and played a role in bringing that methodology about."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by Christian3 View PostTyped before I had my first cup of coffee.
Should read Jesus was born of a virgin, siam; even the Qur'an confirms that.
Since Jesus is not God---but a human being, the symbolism, likely, functions in a different way....?....
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Originally posted by DesertBerean View PostChristianity began with Jews, therefore it was informed by Jewish views of sexual relations. Adultery and fornication is forbidden as per the Law, and confirmed in New Testament as being of the flesh, whereas in marriage it is honorable. It seems there was a thread of asceticism in Judaism but I can't find that it was common. In pagansim the tendency to view sex as bad was more common. Paul's cautions to the Corinthians show that there was a tendency towards that. Yet there was also a problem with adultery (husbands visiting prostitutes in the temple before going home), so I guess they were conflicted.
But I really don't think the idea of Mary always a virgin came as much from the idea of sex being bad as it was about the question of sin itself. The argument was how the sinless Son of God could be born from a woman who herself was a sinner? This is what many of the early Christians were grappling with, despite the prophecy that the Messiah would be born of the seed of the woman.
Mary was not a sinner because she did not have sex? therefore, if she did she would be a sinner? ...except if she were married?
Would there be a theological problem if God were to incarnate by a married woman?
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostPaul was clearly against uncontrolled passion. In I Thessalonians 4:2-5 he makes it clear that For you know what instructions we gave you through the Lord Jesus. 3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from fornication; each one of you know how to control your own body[b] in holiness and honour, 5 not with lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God.
However, what does Paul really mean by lustful passion? In Corinthians 7:9 he instructs those who burn (are inflamed) that it is better to marry but what does he really mean by that? How did Paul view this feeling of burning as a metaphor for being inflamed with desire? How would Paul have viewed a man who burned for his wife or a wife who burned for her husband? Would that have been lustful passion or acceptable behaviour for Paul? We do not know.
Was he advocating marriage as a way of engaging in passionless sex? This passage is widely interpreted to be condemnatory of any kind of passion so does that include passion in the marriage bed? [see Stoic views on appetites and passions].
Certainly some of the ECFs considered it to be so. Augustine of Hippo, after his own Manichean past had been firmly put behind him, regarded sex as a lamentable admission of sinfulness and alienation from the divine; and while marital intercourse was within the range of forgiveable sins, it was, inevitably and always, smeared over by guilt and lustful disobedience [see Augustine De civitate Dei, Against Faustus, On Marriage and Concupisence, and Against Julian of Eclanum].
Augustine was not alone in his views on sex and marriage and with Jerome and Ambrose rounded on the late fourth century bishop Jovinian [340-405 CE] who, having become alarmed in the way the ascetical movement was developing in the West with its detrimental views on marriage and sexuality had written a book arguing that both the ascetics and those who were married had equal spiritual status within the church. He also expressed doubts over the perpetual virginal state of the virgin Mary. His views were enough for Ambrose to condemn him at the Synod of Milan and for Augustine, Pelagius, and Jerome to make (often extremely vitriolic) attacks on him. The protests succeeded in securing Jovinian Imperial exile and the burning of his books.
looked up stoics....
apparently their concern was with "attachment"---very Buddhist---though they seem to be on the extreme end of the scale!!!.
http://www.themontrealreview.com/200...x-and-Love.php
Like Lucretius and the Epicureans, the Stoics believe the custom of monogamy is both unnatural and not beneficial to human happiness.
According to Diogenes Laertius, the Stoics "think the wise men should have their wives in common, so that anyone might make love to any woman." Only in this way could the Stoics continue to maintain their lack of attachments to external things. In such a system, "the jealousy occasioned by adultery would be removed."
...but I can see how the combination of Jewish views on marriage + Stoic views on sex could have led to Christian perspectives on the issue.
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Originally posted by siam View Postcan you elaborate on the underlined part....
Mary was not a sinner because she did not have sex? therefore, if she did she would be a sinner? ...except if she were married?
Would there be a theological problem if God were to incarnate by a married woman?
The prophecy declared that the Messiah was to be born from a virgin. I imagine that, yes, incarnation through a married woman would not fulfill that prophecy.Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette
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