Originally posted by Gary
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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If Evolution is True, why do Humans need a Savior but the Great Apes do Not?
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"The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by psstein View PostEducating myself is tough. I'd rather remain an ignorant fundie.
It's also not a book; it's a blog post available online.
http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2011...in-part-i.html
...And they (Christians) have not recovered from that (Darwin's discovery of evolution and the natural selection of species). Instead they deliberately misunderstood his theory, pretending that what he uncovered was the fact that creatures evolved. Well we already knew that. What Darwin actually figured out was that we evolved completely and entirely due to natural and random mutations selected by nature for their survival value. This utterly impersonal process makes no room for any divine teleology, no matter how mystically it is framed. The notion that intelligent life was inevitable is just dead wrong.Last edited by Gary; 07-18-2016, 07:57 PM.
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Originally posted by Gary View PostOh, my, goodness. You are back. How I have missed your thoughtful insights, Little One!"The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by Gary View Post
That's some grade A stupidity there because it all depends on what your defining as 'complex' as not 'complex'. Sharks are better swimmers and stronger than humans, but are not nearly as intelligent either. Sharks have some pretty small brains that are mostly dedicated to smell and sight and can't really think in the way humans do. So what is he defining as 'complex' and 'not complex' and why? TE isn't based on humans being 'the most complex' creations my fundy atheist friend, but is based on humans being the only animals that understand our own sinful nature. Something you can't seem to grasp or just don't care. Why is it because your entire belief system is based on a refutation of YEC principles and views so non YEC principles and views can't be allowed to stand?
Do support this statement with some actual evidence please. Thanks!
Evidence for this assertion is...
...And they (Christians) have not recovered from that (Darwin's discovery of evolution and the natural selection of species). Instead they deliberately misunderstood his theory, pretending that what he uncovered was the fact that creatures evolved. Well we already knew that. What Darwin actually figured out was that we evolved completely and entirely due to natural and random mutations selected by nature for their survival value. This utterly impersonal process makes no room for any divine teleology, no matter how mystically it is framed. The notion that intelligent life was inevitable is just dead wrong.
Please stop posting soundbites already. Most of us are capable of reading, but this assertion is just plain silly because I'm pretty sure a God that spoke the entire universe into existence is perfectly capable of guiding evolution in a specific direction or even building in the beginnings of the universe an animal with enough intelligence to understand their own nature. If anything, it is you and your fundy atheist buddies that try to fit God into a little box, but God is far bigger than any box you want to try to trap him into.Last edited by lilpixieofterror; 07-18-2016, 08:03 PM."The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View PostYes, that must be why the followers of Jesus described Jesus as being physically resurrected and the following generations agreed with that idea too. I see your fundy brain is simply incapable of absorbing the idea that one can accept scientific consensus and still remain a Christian. Do keep arguing against strawman though because I'm sure it's easier than trying to actually understand what your opponents believe.Last edited by Gary; 07-18-2016, 08:10 PM.
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Originally posted by Gary View PostThe hysterical, uneducated Galilean peasants who had dreams and visions of a dead Jesus appearing to them THOUGHT that they had seen a real resurrected body...in their dreams and visions...and that is what gave rise to the early Christian Creed found in First Corinthians 15. That doesn't mean that the educated Greek-speaking Gentiles who wrote the Gospels many decades later believed these visions and dreams to be literal. It is quite possible that they did not. It is quite possible that the educated authors of the four gospels invented their stories of Empty Tombs, angels, dead saints roaming the streets, and Jesus appearing in Upper Rooms and on sandy sea shores, as anthropomorphic language, meant to express deeper theological themes, not for writing literal history."The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by Gary View Post-Six day creation
-young earth
-world wide flood
-the earth is the center of the universe; the sun revolves around the earth.
-large exodus of hundreds of thousands if not millions of Hebrews from ancient Egypt, who wander in a nearby desert for 40 years until all but two of them are dead.Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette
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Gary this thread was over in post number 2. rogue06 said that my answer was correct. the rest of this is you being a jerk and trying to trap TE's somehow. if you have genuine questions just ask them without the arrogance and snark and maybe rogue06 will answer you and expound.
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If the implication here is that evolution implies that there is no difference between animals and humans, I'd have to question that. Most atheists have no problem eating meat, for instance."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by Gary View PostSure. Anthropomorphic expressions. I can buy that.
Maybe the same is true when the authors of the Gospels spoke about the "Resurrection" of Jesus. They didn't intend to mean that God reanimated a dead body. They knew that the early Resurrection belief was originally based solely on visions and vivid dreams, not on sightings of a real walking/talking/broiled-fish-eating body. It is anthropomorphic language, signifying that God figuratively "raised" Jesus, in spiritual sense, to spiritually uplift mankind.
Sounds reasonable.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by Gary View Post---only a supernatural being can create a universe in six days, etc., on down the line.
You see, Gary, what you're describing are what happened, not why. If the data showed that the world was indeed created in six days...how is that proof of the supernatural when it was in fact natural?
The question remains, I think..."What does evolution have to do with the need for salvation?"Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette
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Originally posted by Gary View PostYea, right...
Why don't you just admit it: you are trying to dress up an ancient superstition with a lot of "intellectual-ese".
Admit the obvious: The supernatural claims in the Bible are just as probable to be true as the supernatural claims about Zeus and the gods of Mt. Olympus. No amount of intellectual psycho-babble makes ancient Greek, Roman, or Christian supernatural tales more believable.
Folks: If you really want to believe something, no matter how preposterous and out-of-this-world, you can always make up intellectual sounding theories to support it. We see this phenomenon all the time in the world of conspiracy theories. I suggest we start with the evidence and accept the conclusions that the evidence points to instead of starting with an ancient superstition and trying desperately to invent intellectual-sounding theories to support its believability.
Folks: why don't we all admit it? Gary is clueless.
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Originally posted by Gary View PostThe hysterical, uneducated Galilean peasants who had dreams and visions of a dead Jesus appearing to them THOUGHT that they had seen a real resurrected body...in their dreams and visions...and that is what gave rise to the early Christian Creed found in First Corinthians 15. That doesn't mean that the educated Greek-speaking Gentiles who wrote the Gospels many decades later believed these visions and dreams to be literal. It is quite possible that they did not. It is quite possible that the educated authors of the four gospels invented their stories of Empty Tombs, angels, dead saints roaming the streets, and Jesus appearing in Upper Rooms and on sandy sea shores, as anthropomorphic language, meant to express deeper theological themes, not for writing literal history.
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Originally posted by Gary View PostThe hysterical, uneducated Galilean peasants who had dreams and visions of a dead Jesus appearing to them THOUGHT that they had seen a real resurrected body...in their dreams and visions...and that is what gave rise to the early Christian Creed found in First Corinthians 15. That doesn't mean that the educated Greek-speaking Gentiles who wrote the Gospels many decades later believed these visions and dreams to be literal. It is quite possible that they did not. It is quite possible that the educated authors of the four gospels invented their stories of Empty Tombs, angels, dead saints roaming the streets, and Jesus appearing in Upper Rooms and on sandy sea shores, as anthropomorphic language, meant to express deeper theological themes, not for writing literal history.
DREAMS? .....oh help me...Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette
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