Is a Suboptimal World a Problem?

[JimL]

now you are getting it!

Good, glad you agree. So stop trying to pass on your foolishness.

[Sparko]

Ah, I see, so prior to his sinning Adam was really no different at all than are his descendents, other than the fact that he hadn't yet sinned. So we didn't inherit a sin nature, or the inclination to sin, from Adam, we inherited it from his and our maker? Is that correct?

no.

But if Adam was no different than us how could he choose not to sin? Can you choose not to sin?

see above.

So explain to me in what way Adam, prior to his sinning, was any different than us. Because if there was no difference, then we didn't inherit a sin nature from Adam, Adam just chose to sin, thats all.

But Adam didn't get that choice, correct?

Prior to his sinning, Adam could sin or not sin, and so can we sin or not sin, whats the difference?
Again, the bible never mentions god giving Adam the choice to submit his will to god and therefore not be able to sin. Why not? Without that choice, as you admit, being human, Adam, like you and me, was bound to sin. Correct?

Why not? What exactly happens to your will that it can no longer choose to sin when you submit it to god?

So the will has an element engineered into it that makes you unable not to sin? Was Adam created with that element? Or did he get it by sinning?


I can grasp it all right, but as I said previously, it's inane. You don't make sense. You're trying to construct a logical explanation for your theology, but logically it doesn't work. I know, thats why we need the holy spirit right, because the person without the holy spirit can't understand the illogical, correct?

you are sooooo ignorant. You miss it right from the beginning. OK I am done with you. buh-bye.

[Sparko]

Good, glad you agree. So stop trying to pass on your foolishness.

I was talking to a fool. Just as you recognized.

[JimL]

I was talking to a fool. Just as you recognized.

Nope, if I were the fool i'd have believed the same foolish illogical nonsense that you do. Besides isn't it, according to your belief, a sin to call others names like ignorant and fool?

[whag]

you can sin because you still have free will. that is where the choice comes in. choose to submit your will to God or not. Adam chose not. so he got a sin nature. a sin nature means you will choose to sin. it is still you choosing to sin even if you have a sin nature. just like an addict is still responsible for taking drugs or alcohol. when we get our glorified bodies we will have already chose to submit our will to God, so we will then not sin.

Adam: could sin or not sin
Us: will sin
Glorified submitted will to God: can't sin

This isn't as clear as you think, Sparko. For one, this implies a literal Adam when the reality was different. We were always predisposed to express imperfection, which is why it manifested right away.

War and conflict, for example, started right away because we were always a fearful and teritorial species. Still are, in fact. For two, if Adam took a seperate fork in the road, the problems of Satan and the threat of evil would exist. This is the point of the OP.

[JimL]

This isn't as clear as you think, Sparko. For one, this implies a literal Adam when the reality was different. We were always predisposed to express imperfection, which is why it manifested right away.

Exactly, Sparko hasn't explained in what sense Adams pre sin nature differed from that of his post sin nature. Thats because it didn't differ, because if it did, then he wouldn't have been able to sin in the first place.

War and conflict, for example, started right away because we were always a fearful and teritorial species. Still are, in fact. For two, if Adam took a seperate fork in the road, the problems of Satan and the threat of evil would exist. This is the point of the OP.

Assuming for the sake of argument that the story is true, then yes, the problem of evil would always exist, and that is because even if Adam didn't sin, he obviously could have sinned as the bible alleges he did, therefore just like Adam, we his descendents, though inheriting Adams non sin nature, could still have sinned. Its natural.

[whag]

Exactly, Sparko hasn't explained in what sense Adams pre sin nature differed from that of his post sin nature. Thats because it didn't differ, because if it did, then he wouldn't have been able to sin in the first place.

Assuming for the sake of argument that the story is true, then yes, the problem of evil would always exist, and that is because even if Adam didn't sin, he obviously could have sinned as the bible alleges he did, therefore just like Adam, we his descendents, though inheriting Adams non sin nature, could still have sinned. Its natural.

Okay, but let me talk to Sparko. You two get into ridiculousness ad hom ping pong, and it bores the snot out of me.

[JimL]

Okay, but let me talk to Sparko. You two get into ridiculousness ad hom ping pong, and it bores the snot out of me.

No prob, good luck.

[Sparko]

Nope, if I were the fool i'd have believed the same foolish illogical nonsense that you do. Besides isn't it, according to your belief, a sin to call others names like ignorant and fool?

By their own mouths they are condemned,

That is how one would talk to a fool

[whag]

It's kind of taboo in Christianity to suggest that God has any "needs" at all. However, passion seems mostly based on need, so there's a disconnect here. The divine need is super mysterious, yet the topic is couched in anthropomorphic analogies that don't make much sense. Consider the "God as artist" analogy. Recently, William Lane Craig's statement responding to Sean Carroll's criticism of Craig's fine-tuning apologia struck me as odd:

"But why should we think of God on the analogy of an engineer? Suppose God is more like the cosmic artist who wants to splash his canvas with extravagance of design, who enjoys creating this fabulous cosmos, designed in fantastic detail for observers."

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/sean-...#ixzz4ExCeWykc

Artists typically express themselves for a variety of complex reasons that are traceable to needs, like catharsis and affirmation. Here, Craig seems to leverage the coolness and humanity of that fact, making God look like a painter but not willing to admit that, ultimately, God exults in the ugliness of that imperfection. If indeed everything teleological (everything that he made) is "art" to God.

[stfoskey15]

I don't know. Do you think Ghandi was sinless? I don't.

What changed? They went from perfect beings to flawed. They died spiritually, and their children inherited their flaws. Genetic? probably in some way. We have genetic flaws now, disease, etc. But the sin nature is spiritual.

You should read Romans if you want the whole theology. 1 Corinthians could help too.

But why does sinning result in hell? If you do finite damage, shouldn't you get finite punishment?

[Sparko]

But why does sinning result in hell? If you do finite damage, shouldn't you get finite punishment?

You are sinning against an infinite God. You are rejecting God for all time. Should God force you to be with him anyway? I think if you reject God and basically say "I would rather do what I want than what God wants" then God let's you. For eternity. And that is hell. He separates you from him just like you want.

[Christianbookworm]

You are sinning against an infinite God. You are rejecting God for all time. Should God force you to be with him anyway? I think if you reject God and basically say "I would rather do what I want than what God wants" then God let's you. For eternity. And that is hell. He separates you from him just like you want.

God would know one can not keep a "wild animal" as a "pet". If some one does not want to be saved, "saving" them against their will would be a bad idea for the same reason one would not want an adult feral cat as a pet. The "wild animal" would be more stressed than if "it" had to live in the wild, it may hurt the "tame animals", and the "wild animal" is apt to be aggressive to anyone who would try to keep it in captivity. Who says that unrepentant sinners won't continue to sin for eternity?

[whag]

You are sinning against an infinite God. You are rejecting God for all time. Should God force you to be with him anyway? I think if you reject God and basically say "I would rather do what I want than what God wants" then God let's you. For eternity. And that is hell. He separates you from him just like you want.

In no way does this describe the majority of enculturated human beings punished eternally for the crime of being of a different religion. Hence, this is no answer.

[Sparko]

In no way does this describe the majority of enculturated human beings punished eternally for the crime of being of a different religion. Hence, this is no answer.

sure it is. They are still sinners. We all are sinners. God gives us a "way out" - to be saved. He certainly doesn't OWE us salvation, because we are all sinners. The only thing he owes each and every one of us is judgment on our sins. Yet he is merciful and provides a way out, by sending his son to pay for our sins and all we have to do is accept that sacrifice and choose him as our Lord and Savior. If you want to follow Ginesh, or Mohammad, or the Spaghetti Monster instead, then you will get what you deserve: judgment. The only ones getting unfair treatment (if you want to call it that) are those that accept God's free gift of salvation. They get out of the judgment that we all deserve. But the way is open to everyone, so instead of complaining, accept it and be saved.