The Final Stage of Creation

[37818]

Gods knowledge of your future precedes your actual future, not only does gods knowledge of your future precede your actual future, but gods knowledge of your future precedes your very existence. Isn't that correct? So, if gods knowledge of your future precedes his creation of you, precedes your very existence, then tell me how you can be the one to freely choose that future. Remember when answering that, what you will do, your future actions, were decided before you even existed.
Now thats my logical argument that you claim I haven't put forth, please give a logical argument that refutes my own because so far no one here has done so.

You have your own definition of omniscience which is not of infinite being.

[JimL]

You have your own definition of omniscience which is not of infinite being.

The above is not a refutation of anything I said. If you can logically refute what I said, please do, if you can't answer to it then there is no need of you replying.

[37818]

The above is not a refutation of anything I said. If you can logically refute what I said, please do, if you can't answer to it then there is no need of you replying.

You confuse making a decision with having information.

God's knowledge of your future precedes your actual future, . . .

OK.

. . . not only does god's knowledge of your future precede your actual future, but gods knowledge of your future precedes your very existence. Isn't that correct?

OK.

So, if god's knowledge of your future precedes his creation of you, precedes your very existence, then tell me how you can be the one to freely choose that future.

God created us to be self willed beings. We make our own choices.

Remember when answering that, what you will do, your future actions, were decided before you even existed.

No. Not decided but known by God. There is a difference between deciding for another and knowing what another is going to do before hand.

[Tassman]

No. Not decided but known by God. There is a difference between deciding for another and knowing what another is going to do before hand.

NOT

[Kbertsche]

Gods knowledge of your future precedes your actual future,

Yes.

not only does gods knowledge of your future precede your actual future, but gods knowledge of your future precedes your very existence. Isn't that correct?

Yes.

So, if gods knowledge of your future precedes his creation of you, precedes your very existence, then tell me how you can be the one to freely choose that future.

Why not? Why can't I freely choose my future, but God still knows ahead of time what I will choose? Nothing you said above rules this out. You have given NO logical argument against this position.

Consider a person who you know really, really well (maybe a spouse, a child, or a parent). Aren't there situations where you know ahead of time exactly what they will choose, just because you know them so well? Does this foreknowledge on your part destroy their free will??

Remember when answering that, what you will do, your future actions, were decided before you even existed.

No. My actions aren't decided until I make a decision. My actions were foreknown before I existed, but not necessarily decided. Again, you are confusing knowledge and causation.

Now thats my logical argument that you claim I haven't put forth, please give a logical argument that refutes my own because so far no one here has done so.

I have shown that your "logical argument" fails. Your conclusions do not logically follow. Maybe you can tighten your argument?

[Kbertsche]

NOT

As I suggested to JimL:

Consider a person who you know really, really well (maybe a spouse, a child, or a parent). Aren't there situations where you know ahead of time exactly what they will choose, just because you know them so well? Does this foreknowledge on your part destroy their free will??

[Tassman]

As I suggested to JimL:

Consider a person who you know really, really well (maybe a spouse, a child, or a parent). Aren't there situations where you know ahead of time exactly what they will choose, just because you know them so well? Does this foreknowledge on your part destroy their free will??

probably choose. And the deity knows this from before you even existed.

[JimL]

Yes.

Yes.

Why not? Why can't I freely choose my future, but God still knows ahead of time what I will choose? Nothing you said above rules this out. You have given NO logical argument against this position.

Consider a person who you know really, really well (maybe a spouse, a child, or a parent). Aren't there situations where you know ahead of time exactly what they will choose, just because you know them so well? Does this foreknowledge on your part destroy their free will??

No. My actions aren't decided until I make a decision. My actions were foreknown before I existed, but not necessarily decided. Again, you are confusing knowledge and causation.

I have shown that your "logical argument" fails. Your conclusions do not logically follow. Maybe you can tighten your argument?

And ask yourself how it is that god knows you so very well that he knows your every future move? Sparko and others believe that it is because all of time exists and so god can actually see your future, which of course is ridiculous since if your future exists along with all of time then obviously no one is choosing anything. So, if god created you, and he knew what your future actions would be even before he created you, how did he know, i.e. if you are to have free will, how could god have known prior to your existence what your free will choices will be? Remember, god created you knowing beforehand what he was creating, so how are you responsible for being what god knew he was creating you to be?

[JimL]

You confuse making a decision with having information.


OK.
OK.

God created us to be self willed beings. We make our own choices.

No. Not decided but known by God. There is a difference between deciding for another and knowing what another is going to do before hand.

No, not just known, but decided. If your future is known by your creator before he creates you, then you can't change anything about that future once you actually exist. Its really simple logic, the interesting thing to me now is what it is that keeps you from seeing it.

[shunyadragon]

You keep declaring this, but with no argument, proof, or evidence. Why do you think that omniscience necessitates causation? I do not see any logical reason for this. Can you present a logical argument or proof?

I believe there are no logical arguments or proof either way, because there are no assumptions here that are not biased toward the conclusions. You are basing your argument on the assumption that God exists, and God predetermines everything in Creation, and maintaining humans still have free will despite all decisions made are predetermined. There is no proof that this is true.

JimL is justified in questioning the reality of your claim that 'free will' could exist in a totally predestined clock works world.

I believe the description of the circumstances of the 'Original Sin' and the 'Fall' as described in Genesis believed by most Christians contradicts your assertions. The description in Genesis is that God did know in advance of the decision by Adam and Eve to eat the forbidden fruit.

[Sparko]

The point is that if you were never born there would be no "you". End of story.

that's what I said. there could be no paradox because you can't go back if you don't exist. It is self-canceling. It is a contradiction that can't happen. That just means that if someone could go back in time that they could not cause a paradox, not that they could not go back in time.

[Sparko]

JimL if you want to have an actual debate with me on what I believe and why you are wrong, go back and answer my questions to you. Otherwise you are just admitting you are wrong and trying to avoid that fact because you are stubborn.

I knew you would do that, therefore I took away your free will

[JimL]

JimL if you want to have an actual debate with me on what I believe and why you are wrong, go back and answer my questions to you. Otherwise you are just admitting you are wrong and trying to avoid that fact because you are stubborn.

I knew you would do that, therefore I took away your free will

I've answered all of your questions Sparko, but in asking me questions you have failed to answer my own questions to you. So I will ask again and see if you can answer it directly instead of asking a different question. So, here we go. If all of time exists , including the future, which is your argument, and that means that all of time, the entire history of the created world has always existed since its inception, then how can you yourself effect any change via free will within that which has always been? Even with your magical theory of a time machine and travel to the past, you would still be within, according to your own theory, an all existing time where all events have always existed, including your time travel to the past. So, according to your own theory of all of time having always existed, which is why god can see it all from being outside of it, explain to me how in that scenario you have free will to choose as you please?

[37818]

Tasman and JimL both cannot accept the concept of omniscience. Their idea is causal. Finite concept of a god.

[JimL]

Tasman and JimL both cannot accept the concept of omniscience. Their idea is causal. Finite concept of a god.

Wrong, what we can't accept is the concept of omniscience along with free will, and you have yet to give a logical explanation in support of it. When you can do that, rather than just asserting your belief in its validity, let me know.