The Final Stage of Creation

[Tassman]

That doesn't follow.

Of course it does. An omniscient being would know what "free-will" choices would be made before they've even been made. To say otherwise means that he's less than omniscient.

[Tassman]

Of course it does not. There's no necessary connection given, so perhaps you could state the implied premises.

I can know what flavour of ice-cream my best friend will choose when we're at the shop, but that doesn't mean I decided what flavour he chose.

Bad analogy! You can guess with a degree of certainly what flavour of ice-cream your best friend will choose, but guessing is not the same as knowing, i.e. it's not omniscience. You could be wrong, whereas an omniscient being could not be wrong by definition.

[MaxVel]

Of course it does. An omniscient being would know what "free-will" choices would be made before they've even been made. To say otherwise means that he's less than omniscient.

Agreed. How does the second sentence in your post I replied to follow from the first, then? 'God knows what I will freely choose' does not equal 'God decided what I will freely choose'.

[MaxVel]

Bad analogy! You can guess with a degree of certainly what flavour of ice-cream your best friend will choose, but guessing is not the same as knowing, i.e. it's not omniscience. You could be wrong, whereas an omniscient being could not be wrong by definition.

Irrelevant. How does knowing what someone will freely chose equal deciding what they will freely choose? That's your claim.

[Tassman]

Agreed. How does the second sentence in your post I replied to follow from the first, then? 'God knows what I will freely choose' does not equal 'God decided what I will freely choose'.

In effect it does. When you have an omniscient creator-god, free will among the created cannot exist. Such a deity would have full knowledge of what all your choices will be before he created you, i.e. before you existed.

[Sparko]

Thank you JimL and Tassman for once again derailing an interesting thread.

[MaxVel]

In effect it does. When you have an omniscient creator-god, free will among the created cannot exist. Such a deity would have full knowledge of what all your choices will be before he created you, i.e. before you existed.

You're just reasserting your previous claim, worded differently. I've already given a counter-example to show that knowledge of a free choice is not the same as controlling that choice.

[Sparko]

You're just reasserting your previous claim, worded differently. I've already given a counter-example to show that knowledge of a free choice is not the same as controlling that choice.

I knew you were going to post that.

[Sparko]

If you think of omniscience as being basically the same as knowledge of past choices and events from a far future prospective, then it is basically the same as our knowledge of events and choices in the past. We just know what the choices were, but that doesn't make free will go away. God being outside of time, exists at all times, including our future, where he can see our choices as "the past" to him. It is no different than say, someone in the year 3000 looking back at our lives and knowing every choice we made.

[JimL]

If you think of omniscience as being basically the same as knowledge of past choices and events from a far future prospective, then it is basically the same as our knowledge of events and choices in the past. We just know what the choices were, but that doesn't make free will go away. God being outside of time, exists at all times, including our future, where he can see our choices as "the past" to him. It is no different than say, someone in the year 3000 looking back at our lives and knowing every choice we made.

God can't know or exist in our future unless our future also exists and if our future already exist either in reality or as knowledge in the mind of god, then there is nothing we can do to change that reality or knowledge of it.
This is really just common sense logic, but I think you guys are just unable to accept it and so choose to see logic in your own illogical rationalizations.

[JimL]

Thank you JimL and Tassman for once again derailing an interesting thread.

The thread is not derailed Sparko, omniscience is a factor in the discussion, since god is said to be omniscient, and if I am not mistaken, you're the one who brought it up. Besides, nothing is stopping you from ignoring what you believe to be the wrong track and going on with your discussion with Whag. Whats the problem?

[MaxVel]

God can't know or exist in our future unless our future also exists and if our future already exist either in reality or as knowledge in the mind of god, then there is nothing we can do to change that reality or knowledge of it.
This is really just common sense logic, but I think you guys are just unable to accept it and so choose to see logic in your own illogical rationalizations.

Poisoning the well isn't helpful.

[MaxVel]

Thank you JimL and Tassman for once again derailing an interesting thread.

Don't forget me! I helped derail it too!

[bling]

I can accept God made the best possible universe. For the sake of argument, I'll concede that a hostile universe is the best universe to get to the finally stage.

I can't accept that he didn't know that sin being actualized would lead to the better, most important part, and thus that actualization was necessary for the world to properly reach its final stage. What other scenario would pave the way to a world with no natural or moral evil?

[Tassman]

You're just reasserting your previous claim, worded differently.

I've already given a counter-example to show that knowledge of a free choice is not the same as controlling that choice.

Every event and every decision is necessitated by antecedent events and conditions. God, if he existed, would be the ultimate causation. The buck stops there.