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The Final Stage of Creation

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  • #31
    Originally posted by JimL View Post
    Isn't satan supposed to be the temptor, tempting us to sin against god? And if god could restrain satan, why did he allow him to entice A+E in the first place? Apparently satan is all part of gods plan to bring sin into the world. But that would mean that satan didn't rebel against god of his own free will, hes gods buddy, his rebellion, so to speak, was just part of gods plan for humanity. I find it funny that god reprimands satan for tempting A+E as if in his omniscience he had no idea what satan was up to.
    If this ancient story is true, the perfect God was bored. After existing forever, he suddenly decided he needed to create something. And in his omniscience, he created a Creation that he knew in advance he would soon curse with massive, horrifying, unimaginable suffering.

    This ancient story is either the musings of ancient, superstitious people attempting to explain the origin of their existence, or it is a cruel, sadistic reality of a Being no one should refer to as "our loving heavenly Father".

    Comment

    • #32
      Originally posted by Tassman View Post
      No, Omniscience and Libertarian Free Will are incompatible concepts, any notion of a deity that incorporates both properties is therefore essentially contradictory
      Omniscience is not possible for finite entities.
      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

      Comment

      • #33
        Originally posted by 37818 View Post
        Omniscience is not possible for finite entities.
        Not the point made. The point made was that an omniscient creator and a free will creation is a contradiction.

        Comment

        • #34
          Originally posted by Gary View Post
          If this ancient story is true, the perfect God was bored. After existing forever, he suddenly decided he needed to create something. And in his omniscience, he created a Creation that he knew in advance he would soon curse with massive, horrifying, unimaginable suffering.

          This ancient story is either the musings of ancient, superstitious people attempting to explain the origin of their existence, or it is a cruel, sadistic reality of a Being no one should refer to as "our loving heavenly Father".
          True, and my bet is on the former.

          Comment

          • #35
            Originally posted by JimL View Post
            Not the point made. The point made was that an omniscient creator and a free will creation is a contradiction.
            Yes exactly, an obvious point I would have thought.

            Comment

            • #36
              Originally posted by JimL View Post
              I think you are asking the wrong question whag. Why would a god create such a world in the first place? Just for the hell of it?
              Because he loves us, can't you tell?

              Comment

              • #37
                Originally posted by JimL View Post
                Not the point made. The point made was that an omniscient creator and a free will creation is a contradiction.
                As you fail to understand, only if said Creator is only a finite entity.
                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                Comment

                • #38
                  Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                  As you fail to understand, only if said Creator is only a finite entity.
                  Why should that matter? Omniscience whether finite or infinite is still omniscience which contradicts free will in either case.

                  Comment

                  • #39
                    Originally posted by JimL View Post
                    Why should that matter? Omniscience whether finite or infinite is still omniscience which contradicts free will in either case.
                    To be finite, is not to be omniscient. So your comment "Why should that matter? Omniscience whether finite . . ." is absurd.
                    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                    Comment

                    • #40
                      Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                      To be finite, is not to be omniscient. So your comment "Why should that matter? Omniscience whether finite . . ." is absurd.
                      Omniscients has nothing to do with infinity, it has to do with possessing all existing knowledge, and a creator possessing all existing knowledge of his creation contradicts free will. Even if you consider the creator to be infinite, or his knowledge to be infinite, and the creation to be finite, the creator would still possess complete knowledge of the creation which would still contradict the notion of free will in the creation. But no matter if you are talking the free will of the creator or free will of the creation, omniscience contradicts it in either case. If you believe I am mistaken on that, then please explain how one can both know everything about the past, present and the future of existence, both his own and his creations, and still be free to change it?

                      Comment

                      • #41
                        Originally posted by JimL View Post
                        Omniscients has nothing to do with infinity, it has to do with possessing all existing knowledge, and a creator possessing all existing knowledge of his creation contradicts free will. Even if you consider the creator to be infinite, or his knowledge to be infinite, and the creation to be finite, the creator would still possess complete knowledge of the creation which would still contradict the notion of free will in the creation. But no matter if you are talking the free will of the creator or free will of the creation, omniscience contradicts it in either case. If you believe I am mistaken on that, then please explain how one can both know everything about the past, present and the future of existence, both his own and his creations, and still be free to change it?
                        Only an infinite being can possibly possess all possible knowledge. A solely finite being cannot possess all knowledge.

                        An omniscient being would know the outcome of free will choices.
                        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                        Comment

                        • #42
                          Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                          Only an infinite being can possibly possess all possible knowledge. A solely finite being cannot possess all knowledge.

                          An omniscient being would know the outcome of free will choices.
                          An omniscient being would know what "free-will" choices would be before they're even made. Hence, everything that will happen has already been decided by God

                          Comment

                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                            An omniscient being would know what "free-will" choices would be before they're even made. Hence, everything that will happen has already been decided by God

                            That doesn't follow.
                            ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

                            Comment

                            • #44
                              Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
                              That doesn't follow.
                              Of course it does. But if you disagree, please explain why.

                              Comment

                              • #45
                                Originally posted by JimL View Post
                                Of course it does. But if you disagree, please explain why.
                                Of course it does not. There's no necessary connection given, so perhaps you could state the implied premises.

                                I can know what flavour of ice-cream my best friend will choose when we're at the shop, but that doesn't mean I decided what flavour he chose.
                                ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

                                Comment

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