Originally posted by JohnMartin
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
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Originally posted by Doug Shaver View PostI told you why: I used to work for newspapers. I know what kind of evidence the average reporter needs to induce him to write, "This event was witnessed by a large number of people."
The problem is so real that if the skeptic applied the same principle to all witnessed events, no crimes would ever be solved, for all witnesses are false and all reports are simply following upon false reports. Of course reality does not function this way, and hence to dismiss the testimony of many witnesses to the Fatima miracle is itself to act fallaciously.
JM
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Originally posted by JohnMartin View PostIts a fallacy to say that because some reporters abuse their power that all reports of miracles are then the result of the same abuse of power.
Originally posted by JohnMartin View PostNot everything reported is a lie.
Originally posted by JohnMartin View PostHence when a large number of witnesses see the sun dance
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Originally posted by JohnMartin View PostThe skeptics posit a natural phenomena that caused the sun to dance. How did the children know when this natural phenomena, which is explained as the dancing of the sun, would occur? They didn't know, so they must have been told. Who told them? The woman from heaven?
From what you can tell . . . You're joking. Those little children reported having seen a woman from heaven who spoke to them and told them secrets. Those children were understood by the people as mediators of messages from heaven. That's why they showed up, and the miracle backed up the children's messages.
Apparently the media/Masonic government at the time was hostile to the Church. Those children were nobodies in a nothing area of poor Portugal. Fatima was a wasteland, yet these children were able to draw such a crowd, all done without the children having an education.
The dancing of the sun produced an effect which dried up the ground around the crowd. Such a drastic change from wet to dry ground requires a large amount of energy, which should have affected the crowd, but did not.
Where are the examples within the press of a counter story. If the miracle was true and witnessed by thousands, such counter testimony would have been easily answered.
Skepticism cannot take into account all of the evidence of the events at the miracle of the dancing sun and miraculous healings since that event.
JM
Originally posted by JohnMartin View PostThere is always a reason to deny the miracle. The latest is miracles don't occur when men have videos. Let me guess, if men had videos, the miracles would be accounted for a doctored videos. If miracles were shown to all men, such would be reduced to some previously unknown psychological disorder. Whatever happens a miracle must be discounted, for no event is permitted to breach the principle of naturalism.
JM
There are plenty of scientific theories that faced an uphill battle and are still not accepted by many people. That's not a problem with the theories, that a problem with people, both lost causes and those lead astray. The evidence stands on its own, and those interested in finding the truth, AKA the scientific community, will follow that evidence. For many atheists, their rejection of a god or gods is based on their scientific proclivity, so it only makes sense for any conversion to be based on an appropriate standard of evidence. There's no reason why any religious claim should be held to a different standard than a scientific claim.Last edited by Psychic Missile; 07-05-2016, 08:53 PM.
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Originally posted by Psychic Missile View PostThe skeptics posit a natural phenomena that caused the sun to dance. How did the children know when this natural phenomena, which is explained as the dancing of the sun, would occur? They didn't know, so they must have been told. Who told them? The woman from heaven?
It is my understanding that Lucia Santos only said that a miracle would occur and gave no specifications. Anything unusual happening amongst a crowd of thousands would have "proven" her right.
From what you can tell . . . You're joking. Those little children reported having seen a woman from heaven who spoke to them and told them secrets. Those children were understood by the people as mediators of messages from heaven. That's why they showed up, and the miracle backed up the children's messages.
Right, they said things people liked to hear. They were local darlings. That's what I said.
Apparently the media/Masonic government at the time was hostile to the Church. Those children were nobodies in a nothing area of poor Portugal. Fatima was a wasteland, yet these children were able to draw such a crowd, all done without the children having an education.
They said they saw the Virgin Mary and people believed them. Lots of people believe liars. It's nothing unusual.
The dancing of the sun produced an effect which dried up the ground around the crowd. Such a drastic change from wet to dry ground requires a large amount of energy, which should have affected the crowd, but did not.
Are you saying rainwater can't evaporate without the ground catching fire?
Where are the examples within the press of a counter story. If the miracle was true and witnessed by thousands, such counter testimony would have been easily answered.
I wouldn't know if they even exist or not because this event seems to be poorly documented based on my online searching. What primary sources are you basing your conclusion of a miracle on?
THE TRUE STORY OF FATIMA
Father John de Marchi, I.M.C,
In the journal, O Seculohttp://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/tsfatima.htm
Skepticism cannot take into account all of the evidence of the events at the miracle of the dancing sun and miraculous healings since that event.
JM
What evidence? You weren't there, no recordings of the event exist, no corroborating scientific measurements occurred. Your proof rests solely on hearsay.
JM
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From the Wiki website, it is stated that Fr John de Marchi completed a lengthy investigation of the miracles at Fatima, which he claims were reported in a pro-government newspaper.
See some of the evidence on the website above.
JM
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Originally posted by Psychic Missile View PostLet's look at the conditions for this miracle. It was localized to one area, it involved no precise imagery or prediction, it involved a crowd of thousands, the crowd was searching for a miracle for hours, it involved meteorological phenomena and people staring at the sun, and the weather was conducive to a solar mirage. Our source of information is biased and prone to histrionics, as evidenced by his writings, and who has multiple stakes in his investigation proving the miracles true. There is also precedence for a crowd of people seeing something that is extraordinary that turns out to be something ordinary, specifically with UFO sightings. With all of these issues, you still think it intellectually honest to accept this event as sole proof of a god's existence?
JM
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Originally posted by JohnMartin View PostNo I don't. It is only some of the evidence against naturalism, which denies the existence of the supernatural. Your explanation does not do justice to what was reported to have happened.
JM
What other evidence is there?Last edited by Psychic Missile; 07-11-2016, 04:51 AM.
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Originally posted by Psychic Missile View PostHow is my explanation in error?
What other evidence is there?
The Fatima event was well documented by Catholics, non Catholics and those hostile to the Catholic faith. You have attempted to reduce the miracle down to a group of naive individuals who wanted something to happen. The truth is that the audience was a mixed group that contained members who were hostile to the faith. The miraculous event changed them and reports have stated some converted to the Catholic faith.
Why would an entire, large body of men look at the sun? What a strange thing to do when men are naturally averse from looking at the sun. You have to posit a strong reason why so many would look directly at the sun when men naturally look away from the sun.
You also have to posit a reason to explain how the ground was dried after the event, when so many saw it happen. In effect you have to propose a reason which has better testimony than those who saw the miracle.
This video entitled The Miracle of the Sun in Fatima October 13, 1917, shows the sequence of events. The video is accompanied by a commentary concerning the sequence of events here.
Ten Greatest (And Hilarious) Scientific Explanations for Miracle at Fatima shows some of the explanations given for Fatima by unbelievers and why those explanations are false.
Apparently the miracle was predicted three months ahead of time. See Marian Miracles for further details -
At Fatima, the Mother of God appeared at noon on the 13th of the months of May through October. When asked by Lucia to "work a miracle so everybody will believe that you are appearing to us," Our Lady answered: "In October I will perform a miracle for all to see and believe."
What we have then is a promise from heaven, made at least three months in advance, to perform a miracle at a precise day, hour, and place so that all may believe. Tens of thousands came to the top of the mountain near Fatima in 1917. Secular newspapers of Lisbon, which were anti-religion, had reporters there. To their credit they reported objectively what they saw.
There are also other Marian miracles discussed at Lourdes and Guadeloupe.
There is simply too much evidence for Marian miracles around the world to dismiss.
JM
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Originally posted by JohnMartin View PostYou think the Fatima event is the sole evidence for the existence of God, when I was not arguing for the existence of God. I was arguing for evidence that overturns the naturalist world view that excludes the super natural.
The Fatima event was well documented by Catholics, non Catholics and those hostile to the Catholic faith. You have attempted to reduce the miracle down to a group of naive individuals who wanted something to happen. The truth is that the audience was a mixed group that contained members who were hostile to the faith. The miraculous event changed them and reports have stated some converted to the Catholic faith.
Why would an entire, large body of men look at the sun? What a strange thing to do when men are naturally averse from looking at the sun. You have to posit a strong reason why so many would look directly at the sun when men naturally look away from the sun.
You also have to posit a reason to explain how the ground was dried after the event, when so many saw it happen. In effect you have to propose a reason which has better testimony than those who saw the miracle.
This video entitled The Miracle of the Sun in Fatima October 13, 1917, shows the sequence of events. The video is accompanied by a commentary concerning the sequence of events here.
Ten Greatest (And Hilarious) Scientific Explanations for Miracle at Fatima shows some of the explanations given for Fatima by unbelievers and why those explanations are false.
Apparently the miracle was predicted three months ahead of time. See Marian Miracles for further details -
You also have to explain all the subsequent miraculous healings that have taken place at Fatima subsequent to the event.
There are also other Marian miracles discussed at Lourdes and Guadeloupe.
There is simply too much evidence for Marian miracles around the world to dismiss.
JM
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If someone told you to look at the sun, you would only do it if there was something unusual happening with the sun. Why? Because you know from experience that looking at the sun would cause harm to your eyes. By the crowd looking at the sun you can easily conclude there must have been something very unusual occurring with the sun. Then we have reports of the sun dancing and changing colour after the event. Hence the crowd looked at the sun, for about ten minutes, and during that time the sun produced effects that were out of the norm. This is strong evidence for a miracle.
You should have good evidence before you try to make an argument. One person's testimony from an event one hundred years ago is not good evidence. A web page with an uncritical eye and no credentials is not good evidence. Individuals saying they saw the Virgin Mary is not good evidence. Just as much evidence exists for UFOs and Bigfoot. At this point, it seems pretty transparent that your evidence is based on post hoc justification for a viewpoint you are uncritical of, or in other words, you are being intellectually dishonest.
Unless you wish to remedy the problems with your argument, I don't see a point to continuing this discussion.
JM
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A good discussion on the historical fact of the Fatima miracle is found at
The Miracle of the Sun at Fatima: Indisputable Historic Fact with Peter Chojnowski
Peter Chojnowski details the historical situation in Portugal, the sufferings of the children at Fatima and the miracles that occurred at Fatima.
JM
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Originally posted by JohnMartin View PostGo ahead and present a couple of those rational arguments for atheism so we can discuss them.
JM
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