Originally posted by JohnMartin
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Proofs for the Existence of God
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Originally posted by JohnMartin View PostThe paperweight is lawfully acting for an end.
Why is the paperweight is lawfully acting for an end by remaining stationary, as opposed to remaining stationary because it isn't acting at all?Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
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Originally posted by Roy View PostRepeating your nonsense doesn't make it true.
Why is the paperweight is lawfully acting for an end by remaining stationary,
as opposed to remaining stationary because it isn't acting at all?
JM
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Originally posted by Doug Shaver View PostAgain: Other than your say-so, can you suggest any reason for me to believe that?
JM
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Originally posted by JohnMartin View PostAgain: Other than your say-so, can you suggest any reason for me to believe that?Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
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Originally posted by JohnMartin View PostDo follows be.Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
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Awright, let me try my hand at this philosophy thing. I was never any good at it.
- Let's assume for the sake of argument that there can't be a infinite sequence of cause and effect.
- This implies that there was a first something that caused the first event. An uncaused cause. Let's call it "alpha".
- Alpha cannot have a finite existence prior to the first cause. Otherwise, it would have to come into existence somehow, which would require a cause. So its existence is unbounded prior to the first cause.
- Alpha could not be sentient prior to the first cause. After all, a stream of consciousness requires sequence of cause and effect.
I suppose one could imagine alpha as an eternal medium in which events can occur. Except of course for the fact that I haven't established that alpha's existence is unbounded after the first event has occurred. I'm still thinking about that part. I note that I've ended up with a situation in which intelligence is created from non-intelligence. Sorry about that. I don't see how I can avoid that. It doesn't rule out God, it just would mean any sentience would have to develop later.Last edited by Yttrium; 03-22-2017, 01:02 PM.Middle-of-the-road swing voter. Feel free to sway my opinion.
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Originally posted by Yttrium View PostAwright, let me try my hand at this philosophy thing. I was never any good at it.
- Let's assume for the sake of argument that there can't be a infinite sequence of cause and effect.
- This implies that there was a first something that caused the first event. An uncaused cause. Let's call it "alpha".
- Alpha cannot have a finite existence prior to the first cause. Otherwise, it would have to come into existence somehow, which would require a cause. So its existence is unbounded prior to the first cause.
- Alpha could not be sentient prior to the first cause. After all, a stream of consciousness requires sequence of cause and effect.
I suppose one could imagine alpha as an eternal medium in which events can occur. Except of course for the fact that I haven't established that alpha's existence is unbounded after the first event has occurred. I'm still thinking about that part. I note that I've ended up with a situation in which intelligence is created from non-intelligence. Sorry about that. I don't see how I can avoid that. It doesn't rule out God, it just would mean any sentience would have to develop later.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostAt some point there has to be something uncaused. What is uncaused has no origin. Now all causes are finite and temporal in being a cause. Now the cosmological uncaused cause would have to be both eternal without any origin and be finite and temporal.
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostAt some point there has to be something uncaused. What is uncaused has no origin. Now all causes are finite and temporal in being a cause. Now the cosmological uncaused cause would have to be both eternal without any origin and be finite and temporal.
Let's set up your premises as simple syllogisms and see where modus ponens actually takes us.
1. That which is uncaused has no origin.
2. There exists something uncaused.
3. Therefore, there exists something which has no origin.
Notice that this tells us nothing about whether the uncaused thing in question is finite or temporal or a cause. As such, your next premise:
4. All causes are finite and temporal in being a cause.
...doesn't relate to your earlier statements at all. Which means your conclusion is a complete non sequitur-- not to mention self-contradictory."[Mathematics] is the revealer of every genuine truth, for it knows every hidden secret, and bears the key to every subtlety of letters; whoever, then, has the effrontery to pursue physics while neglecting mathematics should know from the start he will never make his entry through the portals of wisdom."
--Thomas Bradwardine, De Continuo (c. 1325)
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Originally posted by Boxing Pythagoras View PostYou must be using some rule of logical inference with which I am unfamiliar. Because I am not aware of any which could draw the conclusion you give, here, based on your listed premises.
Let's set up your premises as simple syllogisms and see where modus ponens actually takes us.
1. That which is uncaused has no origin.
2. There exists something uncaused.
3. Therefore, there exists something which has no origin.
Notice that this tells us nothing about whether the uncaused thing in question is finite or temporal or a cause. As such, your next premise:
4. All causes are finite and temporal in being a cause.
...doesn't relate to your earlier statements at all. Which means your conclusion is a complete non sequitur-- not to mention self-contradictory.
Do you know of anything that is not finite? Do you know of anything which is uncaused?
Both the infinite and uncaused are metaphysical concepts.
Nothingness, as I understand the term, has no existence. Therefore existence always was.
[The concept of nothingness has an existence as a concept.]
So, I start with uncaused existence.
Causes are all finite and temporal. What ever is not finite and temporal are metaphysical. [There can be finite and temporal which could be metaphysical.]
Again, the cosmological "uncaused cause" would have to be eternal in being uncaused. What is uncaused, as I understand and use the term, has no origin. And cause to be a cause is [both] finite and temporal. And so, the "uncaused cause" in being a cause would also be finite and temporal.
Now being "uncaused" and so being "infinite" can be supposed. But being "uncaused" does not necessitate being "infinite," does it?Last edited by 37818; 03-23-2017, 08:32 AM.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostEither something is caused or uncaused.
Do you know of anything that is not finite? Do you know of anything which is uncaused?
Both the infinite and uncaused are metaphysical concepts.
Nothingness, as I understand the term, has no existence. Therefore existence always was.
[The concept of nothingness has an existence as a concept.]
So, I start with uncaused existence.
Causes are all finite and temporal. What ever is not finite and temporal are metaphysical. [There can be finite and temporal which could be metaphysical.]
Again, the cosmological "uncaused cause" would have to be eternal in being uncaused. What is uncaused, as I understand and use the term, has no origin. And cause to be a cause is [both] finite and temporal. And so, the "uncaused cause" in being a cause would also be finite and temporal.
Now being "uncaused" and so being "infinite" can be supposed. But being "uncaused" does not necessitate being "infinite," does it?
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