Originally posted by Gary
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
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Gary & Rhinestone's Thread on Burial and Resurrection of Christ
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Originally posted by DesertBerean View PostJERUSALEM IS WHERE CHRISTIANITY BEGAN! It is the most improbable place for it to take root, right where he died and was buried under the Romans! Witnesses galore to contradict the apostles' claims! But even when the apostles were dragged before the Sanhedrin, the Jews did not deny the resurrection. They instead forbade them to preach in the name of Jesus.
And until you unearth one syllable from the the Jewish side of the story, dated up to the same criteria YOU demand for the Gospels, you have NOTHING to stand on!
---"Witnesses galore to contradict the apostles' claims!"
For all we know, Jesus and his band of followers were a very small group of insignificant nobodies whose leader was unceremoniously and unnoticed by the overwhelming majority of the city, snuffed out. The fact that no contemporary mentions a single word about: mass throngs greeting Jesus with palm fronds and shouts of "Hosanna, the son of David, the Messiah, has come to liberate us from the evil Romans", at least two earthquakes, three hour eclipses, angel sightings, the tearing of the temple veil, and dead corpses roaming the streets of the city is pretty significant proof that Jesus was NOT the big deal that the Gospels make him out to be.
---"even when the apostles were dragged before the Sanhedrin"
So says the book in question.
---"Jews did not deny the resurrection"
Where on EARTH do you get this assumption???
---"And until you unearth one syllable from the Jewish side of the story, dated up to the same criteria YOU demand for the Gospels, you have NOTHING to stand on!"
"Unless you can prove that people have NOT been abducted by Martians as Martian-abductee-proponents claim, you have NOTHING to stand on."
Bad logic.Last edited by Gary; 07-21-2016, 12:27 PM.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostEspecially since Joseph lived in... Arimathea, not Jerusalem.
His name is where he was from. This doesn't necessarily meant he still lived there. Moreover, it can translate to "best disciple town" which is sort of
conspicuous. Roger David Aus puts forth the hypothesis that Ramatha/Pisgah was the source of Joseph's name so the connection was made to the place of Moses' burial. https://books.google.com/books?id=_u...kAAWwQ6AEIHDAALast edited by RhinestoneCowboy; 07-21-2016, 12:32 PM.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostGive me a reason the distinction absolutely needed to be made.
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Originally posted by Sparko View Postit is known who wrote it and when. Or them I should say. Nobody disputes the authors. We don't have any gospel manuscripts that don't have a name attached to them. And we don't have any with the wrong name on them. We don't have like 10 copies of Mark with Mark's name attached and 8 copies of Mark with John's name attached to them. And they ARE contemporary. They are written within the lifetime of the event. That is contemporary, and a heck of a lot more contemporary than your sources. Which are?
Unless you can prove that the accepted documents are false, you have to treat them as the truth. You have no way to prove them false or you would have done so. Instead you just handwave them away, throwing out 2000 years of history and acceptance for no other reason that you don't like them.
Try again.
"Nobody disputes the authors"
What an absurd statement! Imagine a believer in alien abductions using the same logic to shoot down criticisms of his or her belief:
"No one disputes that human beings have been abducted by space aliens, including Martians."
A majority, or if you dispute that, at least a significant minority of NT scholars do NOT believe that we know who wrote the four Gospels. To claim that "nobody" disputes this is either blissful, uninformed ignorance, or an outright lie.
Silly. Downright ludicrous. Dear "lurkers": Do you now see the lengths to which Christians will go to prop up this ancient superstition!
"Unless you can prove that the accepted documents are false, you have to treat them as the truth."Last edited by Gary; 07-21-2016, 12:38 PM.
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Originally posted by RhinestoneCowboy View PostI'm pretty sure it says "the chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were looking for evidence against Jesus so that they could put him to death"
and
"they all condemned him to death"
Lemme check on that.........yup. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+14
Here's a link I found about the Sanhedrin:
http://www.bible-history.com/JewishL..._Sanhedrin.htmWatch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette
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Originally posted by Gary View Post
"Nobody disputes the authors"
What an absurd statement! Imagine a believer in alien abductions using the same logic to shoot down criticisms of his or her belief:
"No one disputes that human beings have been abducted by space aliens, including Martians."
A majority, or if you dispute that, at least a significant minority of NT scholars do NOT believe that we know who wrote the four Gospels. To claim that "nobody" disputes this is either blissful, uninformed ignorance, or an outright lie.
Silly. Downright ludicrous. Dear "lurkers": Do you now see the lengths to which Christians will go to prop up this ancient superstition!Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette
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Originally posted by DesertBerean View PostLOL...it doesn't say "Sanhedrin"
but does give the composition of who gathered against Jesus.
Mark 14:53
They took Jesus to the high priest; and all the chief priests, the elders, and the scribes were assembled.
Mark 14:55
Now the chief priests and the whole council were looking for testimony against Jesus to put him to death; but they found none.
Mark 14:64
All of them condemned him as deserving death.
So was Joseph a member of the council or not?
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostAlso, they are corroborated. The Bible didn't fall out of the sky as one canon, they were all originally separate sources (though they may have depended on one another for some details). So we have. Mark, Q, the L-source, the M-source, John, Paul's epistles, the Corinthian creed, and plenty of extra-biblical sources within the same century, both Christian and non.
---the trial before Pilate.
---the burial in the rock tomb of a member of the Sanhedrin
---Mary Magdalene and other women finding an empty tomb on Sunday morning.
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Originally posted by RhinestoneCowboy View PostMark says "they all". His knowledge (or lack thereof) of Jewish customs casts doubt on his depiction as actual history. http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post346987
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Originally posted by Gary View Post
"Nobody disputes the authors"
What an absurd statement! Imagine a believer in alien abductions using the same logic to shoot down criticisms of his or her belief:
"No one disputes that human beings have been abducted by space aliens, including Martians."
A majority, or if you dispute that, at least a significant minority of NT scholars do NOT believe that we know who wrote the four Gospels. To claim that "nobody" disputes this is either blissful, uninformed ignorance, or an outright lie.
Silly. Downright ludicrous. Dear "lurkers": Do you now see the lengths to which Christians will go to prop up this ancient superstition!
"Unless you can prove that the accepted documents are false, you have to treat them as the truth."
There. happy now?
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Originally posted by RhinestoneCowboy View PostOh, so when Mark says "they all" in Mk. 14:53, 55, 64 he doesn't really mean "all"?
So it's safe to say Mark exaggerates things, huh?
Didn't you learn anything from Slick Willy?
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Originally posted by Sparko View Post[ATTACH=CONFIG]17220[/ATTACH]
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