Originally posted by Juice
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You wrote in post #107:
Well, how do you know that? Where does Paul say that? It seems to me, if Paul indicates no difference, or gives no reason to think otherwise, then that points in the direction that they were understood to be equated or at least that's the best supported inference.
The source you linked to says the verb was used for supernatural appearances, not spiritual
"In the New Testament, eighteen of its nineteen occurrences are of supernatural appearances. These include various angelic appearances - Luke 1.11; 22.43; Acts 7.30, 35; the presence of Moses and Elijah at the Transfiguration- Mark 9.4; Matt 17.3; Luke 9.31 (an experience specifically called a "vision" in Matt. 17:9 - Were Moses' and Elijah's physical bodies actually there?)(Was the man's body actually standing there?) - Mark Finney, Resurrection..., pg. 107, 118. https://books.google.com/books?id=1F...page&q&f=false
- https://books.google.com/books?id=1F...page&q&f=false
By the way, how do you know the appearance to Paul was a vision? He never calls it a vision in his primary material. Or are you reading Acts into it? Oops.
By the way, Luke has Paul say the same word for "vision" optasia in Acts 26:19 that Paul says himself in 2 Cor 12:1 for "visions of the Lord."
It was to emphasize what Paul means. I noticed you don't actually have a rebuttal to that. He's claiming to be just as much of an apostle as the others because he has "seen" Jesus. How does Paul "see" Jesus again? And where does he indicate the others "saw" anything different?
- Tuckett, Corinthian Correspondence, pg. 255)
https://books.google.com/books?id=hd...page&q&f=false
It seems to you and other uninformed posters here that the vague phrase "raised from the dead" necessarily entailed a physical resurrection which involved the resuscitation of the earthly corpse. Of course, no evidence is provided for this but instead it's just simply asserted as if that's always the case. When prodding for a reason why, I get the sense that this assumption relies on circular reasoning.
Me: "How do you know 'raised from the dead' always meant physical resurrection?"
You: "Because that's what Paul and the gospel authors say happened to Jesus."
Me: "Ok, but how do you know Paul meant it in the same way as the later gospel authors?"
You: "Uh.....Because the Bible says so, all the accounts must harmonize somehow and my cognitive dissonance won't let me see it any other way."
Although, that's a caricature, it's still quite an appropriate description of what I see going on here.
Let's settle this once and for all, shall we?
First of all, by the phrase "raised from the dead," the word for "raised" egēgertai, need not refer to the literal "raising of a physical object" but also takes on the figurative meaning "to arouse from the sleep of death, to recall the dead to life"
http://lexiconcordance.com/greek/1453.html Paul never says Jesus was "raised" to earth. He only indicates that Jesus had been exalted to heaven. Moreover, the probable Aramaic vorlage of egēgertai - qum, has an even wider range of meaning.
Secondly, the "dead" (νεκρός) was used in the Hebrew Bible/LXX to refer to souls (ψυχή) in Sheol/Hades. Sheol was located under the earth so the souls that come out are said to rise up like the soul of Samuel that Saul has conjured up in 1 Sam 28 - (άνάγω "to bring or lift up", v. 11; άναβαίνω "ascend, go up", vv. 13, 15).
Psalm 30:3 - brought up my soul from Sheol; You have kept me alive, that I would not go down to the pit."
Psalm 88:10 - "Do you show your wonders to the dead? Do their spirits rise up and praise you?"
Hence, the common term for the ψνχή in Sheol is νεκρός.
Deuteronomy 18:11 warns against necromancers consulting dead spirits.
In Sirach 51.6, we see the collocation of a number of terms discussed above: Sirach 38.23 speaks of the departure of the spirit at death, i.e., the end of life: Especially noteworthy is Sirach 48.5, which speaks of the νεκρός being raised from Sheol: where the Greek expression is similar to that found of Jesus in the New Testament (Rom 6.4, 9, ό έγεί ρας νεκρόν εκ θανάτον καί εξ αδον). The common verbs employed to describe the raising of the ψνχή, i.e., the νεκρός from Sheol are, as seen above, άναγω, άναβαινω, έγειρω, and άνίστημι. - Finney, Resurrection..., pg. 27-28
"I thank you O Lord, for you have redeemed my soul from the Pit, and from the Hell of Abaddon. You have raised me up to an everlasting height." - 1QH 3.20f.
Similar passages are found throughout the Hebrew Bible and Apocrypha - Ps 17.6 (the cords of Sheol entangled me; the snares of death confronted me); Pss 48.14; 54.15; 88.48; 116.3; Prov 2.18; 5.5; 7.27; 9.18; Job 33.22; 38.17; Sir 14.12; Hos 13.14 (Shall I ransom them from the power of Sheol? Shall I redeem them from Death?); Isa 14.19; 28.15-18; 38.18; Bar 2.17 (open your eyes, O Lord, and see, for the dead who are in Hades, whose spirit has been taken from their bodies, will not ascribe glory or justice to the Lord); Dan 3.88.
https://books.google.com/books?id=1F...page&q&f=false
All this shows that the "dead" need not refer to dead bodies or corpses buried in the ground but instead could refer to souls/sprits being "raised up" out of Sheol. Therefore, the phrase "raised from the dead" is a non-sequitur as it may not always denote a physical resurrection.
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Now, onto the priority of the soul in relation to the body in Jewish thought:
"death gives liberty to the soul and permits it to depart to its own pure abode, there to be free from all calamity; but [being] imprisoned in a mortal body and tainted with all its miseries [...] ill befits that which is divine [...] it is not until, freed from the weight that drags it down to earth and clings about it, the soul is restored to its proper sphere [...] remaining, like God himself [...] abundant in a wealth of immortality."(War 7.343-48)
In the Ascension of Isaiah, the author describes a glorious vision of the seventh heaven at the end times, glorious because all there, including Enoch, are stripped of (their) robes of the fleshextract (him) from his earthly clothing [...] and put (him) into the clothes of glory (Pseudo-Phocylides, 103-15).
As the soul is spoken of as belonging to, and being borrowed from God, on its release from the body, it is naturally said to return to God and in many texts there is a strong emphasis on the security of the righteous soul after death (4 Ezra 7.75-101) and in 1 Enoch 22:3, "All of the souls of the dead are gathered until the day of judgment."
If 1 Enoch notes that the soul of the righteous goes down into Sheol, other texts speak of the righteous soul rising up into heaven. The doctrine of the Essenes (articulated by Josephus), affirms that when they are set free from the bonds of the flesh they then rejoice and mount upward (War 2.155). In the Apocalypse of Moses the soul of Adam is taken up to heaven (13.3-6; 37ff). The same is said of Abraham in the Testament of Abraham, a text which is illuminating: while the angels escorted his precious soul and ascended into heaven singingJob fell ill [...] after three days he saw those who had come for his soul. Gleaming chariots came for his soul [...] the one who sat on the chariot got off and greeted Job [...] And taking the soul he flew up, embracing it, and mounted the chariot and set off for the east. But his body, prepared for burial, was home to the tomb [...] After three days they laid him in the tomb in a beautiful sleep. - Finney, Resurrection, pg. 51
On 1 Enoch, Nickelsburg argues:
1 Enoch: Chapters 1-36, 81-108; pgs. 519, 523.
The Epistle of Enoch predicts resurrection at the end of history; elsewhere however it asserts future vindication of the righteous in terms that do not suggest the bodily resurrection but the transformation of the spirit after death (103-104). The reward of the righteous is to share the eternal, spiritual life of the angels in heaven. This is not the Greek idea of immortality of the soul, but neither is it the resurrection of the body. Rather it is the resurrection, or exaltation, of the spirit from Sheol to heaven. The bodies of the righteous will presumably continue to rest in the earth. - J.J Collins, pg. 124 https://books.google.com/books?id=ie...page&q&f=false
Testament of Asher 6:5-6
"For when the soul departs troubled, it is tormented by the evil spirit which also it served in lusts and evil works. But if he is peaceful with joy he meeteth the angel of peace, and he leadeth him into eternal life."
Testament of Dan 5:11-12
"And the captivity shall he take from Beliar [the souls of the saints], And turn disobedient hearts unto the Lord, And give to them that call upon him eternal peace. And the saints shall rest in Eden, And in the New Jerusalem shall the righteous rejoice, And it shall be unto the glory of God for ever."
4 Ezra - (4.35, 41); and later, (7.78, 95-96).
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