Ah - it links right back to your own post so it must be true.
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
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Gary & Rhinestone's Thread on Burial and Resurrection of Christ
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1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
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Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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They're good arguments to be sure ... but nothing like as compelling as
appeals to authority with a splash of ad hominem1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostThey're good arguments to be sure ... but nothing like as compelling as
appeals to authority with a splash of ad hominem
I can do this all day.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostJorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
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Who did Jesus appear to, in what order, and where?
In the earliest and only firsthand account 1 Cor 15:5-8, Paul tells us that Jesus appeared in a particular order.
He says "Jesus "appeared" ὤφθη* to Cephas (Peter), then to the twelve. Then he appeared to the 500. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me."
- PAUL'S ORDER: Peter, the twelve, the 500, James, all the apostles, Paul. No location is mentioned.
*NOTE: The word ὤφθη doesn't necessarily mean they "physically" saw anything since it can mean that they just "spiritually saw/experienced" something. So in the case of group appearances it could have been referring to people that had an ecstatic worship experience just like people today in church who pray, sing, or speak in tongues together. Their experience doesn't necessarily rely on sensory perception. This interpretation is made more probable considering Second Temple Judaism was a visionary culture and that the appearance to Paul was a vision which he places in the same list using ὤφθη without making a distinction.
Next we have Mark in which the original ends at 16:8 without an appearance report. All he says is that Jesus will be "seen" in Galilee. Gosh, if we go by the traditional view and we're actually dealing with Peter's preaching in Mark then it's quite strange that he omits the resurrection appearance to Peter or that Peter went to check the tomb as we find out later in Luke/John. Peter surely wouldn't have failed to mention these most important and intriguing details.
- MARK'S ORDER: Not applicable. Appearance predicted to be in Galilee.
Now we come to Matthew who says Jesus first appeared to Mary Magdalene and the other Mary after they discover the tomb - Mt. 28:8-10. Then Jesus appears to the "eleven" (not the Twelve) in Galilee - Mt. 28:16-20. Notice in verse 17 it says that "some doubted" which doesn't speak very well to the veracity of the experience.
- MATTHEW'S ORDER: Two women, eleven disciples. The appearance to the women takes place near the tomb in Jerusalem while the appearance to the disciples happens on a mountain in Galilee.
Next is Luke and the first appearance narrated is to two disciples on the Emmaus Road - Lk. 24:13-35. They say that no one saw him at the tomb - Lk. 24:24, contradicting Matthew's depiction of the appearance to the women - Mt. 28:8-10. When they return to Jerusalem they hear there was an appearance to Peter which is never actually described - Lk. 24:34. This looks to have been lifted directly from 1 Cor 15:5. Then Jesus appears to the rest of the (eleven) disciples in Jerusalem - Lk. 24:33; 36-49. Luke leaves no room for any appearances in Galilee since he has them "stay in the city" until Pentecost - Lk. 24:49, "do not leave Jerusalem" - Acts 1:4. This contradicts Matthew's depiction and Mark's prediction of an appearance in Galilee.
- LUKE'S ORDER: Two on the Emmaus Road, Peter, rest of the eleven disciples. All appearances happen in Jerusalem.
Lastly, we have John where Jesus first appears to Mary Magdalene - John 20:16-18 contradicting Luke 24:24. Then he appears to the eleven disciples - John 20:19-23 and a week later appears again to the disciples plus Thomas - John 20:24-29. These appearances seem to take place in Jerusalem while in the Johannine appendix (chap. 21) the appearances happen near the Sea of Galilee on a fishing trip. Jesus appears to seven disciples in this episode - John 21:1-14.
- JOHN'S ORDER: Mary Magdalene, eleven disciples, the disciples again plus Thomas, then to seven disciples. In John 20 the appearances happen in Jerusalem and in John 21 they happen near the Sea of Galilee on a fishing trip.
Now let's compare the lists:
- PAUL'S ORDER: Peter, the twelve, the 500, James, all the apostles, Paul. No location is mentioned.
- MARK'S ORDER: Not applicable. Appearance predicted to be in Galilee.
- MATTHEW'S ORDER: Two women, eleven disciples. The appearance to the women takes place near the tomb in Jerusalem while the appearance to the disciples happens on a mountain in Galilee.
- LUKE'S ORDER: Two on the Emmaus Road, Peter, rest of the eleven disciples. All appearances happen in Jerusalem.
- JOHN'S ORDER: Mary Magdalene, eleven disciples, the disciples again plus Thomas, then to seven disciples. In John 20 the appearances happen in Jerusalem and in John 21 they happen near the Sea of Galilee on a fishing trip.
Notice how none of the gospel appearance reports match the primitive tradition preserved by Paul. It's kind of strange that none of the gospels authors thought the appearance to the 500 was important enough to mention. The appearances to Peter and James are never described in detail. In Matthew and John, Jesus appears to two women or a woman first. In Paul, Jesus appears to Peter first and in Luke the appearance to the women is entirely written out and instead replaced by an appearance to two male disciples first. Paul mentions no women at all. Luke deliberately alters the venue of the appearances to be Jerusalem instead of Galilee. Despite all the inconsistencies and the contradictions, I guess these reports still represent actual history though, right?
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- PAUL'S ORDER: Peter, the twelve, the 500, James, all the apostles, Paul. No location is mentioned.
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It doesn't matter, memories fade, one might not remember exactly when and where they met their once dead friend, but what they never would forget is that they actually did meet their once dead friend - alive again...Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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One writer's omission of an event does not mean the intervening event or detail had not taken place. For example neither Matthew, Mark nor Luke give account that Mary Magdalene immediately ran off upon seeing the stone was rolled away. And was not with the women when they entered the tomb and saw the angels. Many interpreters miss that detail, which can only be understood from John's account. Paul does not mention the women who were the ones who saw Jesus first, before the 12 (Matthias being one of the other disciples among them).. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by seer View PostIt doesn't matter, memories fade, one might not remember exactly when and where they met their once dead friend, but what they never would forget is that they actually did meet their once dead friend - alive again...Last edited by Tassman; 07-10-2017, 10:27 PM.
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Originally posted by RhinestoneCowboy View PostIn the earliest and only firsthand account 1 Cor 15:5-8, Paul tells us that Jesus appeared in a particular order.
Originally posted by RhinestoneCowboy View Post
...
- LUKE'S ORDER: Two on the Emmaus Road, Peter, rest of the eleven disciples. All appearances happen in Jerusalem.
Originally posted by RhinestoneCowboy View Post...
Now let's compare the lists:
- PAUL'S ORDER: Peter, the twelve, the 500, James, all the apostles, Paul. No location is mentioned.
- MARK'S ORDER: Not applicable. Appearance predicted to be in Galilee.
- MATTHEW'S ORDER: Two women, eleven disciples. The appearance to the women takes place near the tomb in Jerusalem while the appearance to the disciples happens on a mountain in Galilee.
- LUKE'S ORDER: Two on the Emmaus Road, Peter, rest of the eleven disciples. All appearances happen in Jerusalem.
- JOHN'S ORDER: Mary Magdalene, eleven disciples, the disciples again plus Thomas, then to seven disciples. In John 20 the appearances happen in Jerusalem and in John 21 they happen near the Sea of Galilee on a fishing trip.
Notice how none of the gospel appearance reports match the primitive tradition preserved by Paul. It's kind of strange that none of the gospels authors thought the appearance to the 500 was important enough to mention. The appearances to Peter and James are never described in detail. In Matthew and John, Jesus appears to two women or a woman first. In Paul, Jesus appears to Peter first and in Luke the appearance to the women is entirely written out and instead replaced by an appearance to two male disciples first. Paul mentions no women at all. Luke deliberately alters the venue of the appearances to be Jerusalem instead of Galilee. Despite all the inconsistencies and the contradictions, I guess these reports still represent actual history though, right?
The early creed (quoted by Paul) and Luke agree that Peter saw Jesus before the rest of the 11 apostles did so. (The early creed uses the term "the twelve" even though there were only 11 remaining original disciples. Either "the twelve" was a technical moniker, synonymous with "the apostles", or the creed meant to include Matthias, who was Judas' replacement.)
Luke focuses on Jerusalem, where the apostles resided. He doesn't DENY appearances elsewhere, but this is not his focus.
Matthew and John mention women. The other accounts don't DENY appearances to the women; they simply don't mention them.
The early creed adds a group of 500. The other accounts don't DENY this; they simply don't mention it.
Likewise with the other differences that you have noted.
Yes, the details in the accounts are different. But they are complementary, not contradictory.
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PAUL'S ORDER: Peter, the twelve, the 500, James, all the apostles, Paul. No location is mentioned.
MARK'S ORDER: Not applicable. Appearance predicted to be in Galilee.
MATTHEW'S ORDER: Two women, eleven disciples. The appearance to the women takes place near the tomb in Jerusalem while the appearance to the disciples happens on a mountain in Galilee.
LUKE'S ORDER: Two on the Emmaus Road, Peter, rest of the eleven disciples. All appearances happen in Jerusalem.
JOHN'S ORDER: Mary Magdalene, eleven disciples, the disciples again plus Thomas, then to seven disciples. In John 20 the appearances happen in Jerusalem and in John 21 they happen near the Sea of Galilee on a fishing trip.
John 20 reads like the original ending, with John 21 a later addition, and I would guess that John 21 is an independent tradition of the original narrative of the sightings in Galilee, which re-surfaced later, and got tagged on the end.My Blog: http://oncreationism.blogspot.co.uk/
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Originally posted by Kbertsche View PostA minor but important correction: the earliest account is the early creed, 1 Cor 15:5-7, written within just a few years of the events. Vv 8ff were Paul's add-on, some 20 years or so later.
So far, so good. But you have completely ignored Luke's second volume! In Acts 1:1-11, Luke adds that there were multiple appearances to the apostles over the space of 40 days. Luke strongly implies in Acts 1:21-26 that at least two other non-apostles had been with them during this period and had seen Jesus.
Do you REALLY expect every eyewitness account to be identical?? Different observers and reporters focus on different things.
The early creed (quoted by Paul) and Luke agree that Peter saw Jesus before the rest of the 11 apostles did so. (The early creed uses the term "the twelve" even though there were only 11 remaining original disciples. Either "the twelve" was a technical moniker, synonymous with "the apostles", or the creed meant to include Matthias, who was Judas' replacement.)
Luke focuses on Jerusalem, where the apostles resided. He doesn't DENY appearances elsewhere, but this is not his focus.
Matthew and John mention women. The other accounts don't DENY appearances to the women; they simply don't mention them.
The early creed adds a group of 500. The other accounts don't DENY this; they simply don't mention it.
Likewise with the other differences that you have noted.
Yes, the details in the accounts are different. But they are complementary, not contradictory.
1. Transferal
2. Displacement
3. Conflation
4. Compression
5. Spotlighting
6. Simplification
7. Expansion of narrative details
8. Paraphrasing
Licona (and Burridge) warn that to read the Bible, and particularly the Gospels, as though they're modern biographies (as both many Christians and skeptics do) is anachronistic and will only lead to frustration. Licona gives an example to a type of literary device he discusses in his book in this interview with Christianity Today:
Mike LiconaChristianity TodayMike Licona
In discussing the agreement between the 1 Corinthian tradition and the Gospels, Licona has this to say,
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Yes, there are some discrepancies in the accounts (or so it seems just now)... just how extensive or important is unclear - I'll have to draw up comparative charts and tables before I can add to the discussion.Last edited by tabibito; 07-11-2017, 08:12 AM.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostYes, there are some discrepancies in the accounts (or so it seems just now)... just how extensive or important is unclear - I'll have to draw up comparative charts and tables before I can add to the discussion.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostOmission of event or detail does not render the account untrue. We tend to assume more than what is actually said.
For example:
Mark (third hour) and John (sixth hour) differ with regard to the actual time of day that Jesus was crucified. No extant manuscripts of those records say otherwise. Someone made a mistake. That the mistake is trivial doesn't change the fact that it exists. The fact of the crucifixion is not called into question by that error - but it does mean that no statement about the actual time of the crucifixion can be asserted. Given that they both record the time of death as the ninth hour, they can't be using different "clocks".
This is provided as an example only - discussion of the point belongs on the other thread.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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