Gary & Rhinestone's Thread on Burial and Resurrection of Christ

[Gary]

and yet all you can do is say "nuh-uh!" - you have not provided one shred of evidence that anything in the gospels is wrong. Have you any actual evidence that Jesus was buried in a trench? That there was no Joseph of Arimethea? That Pilate did not give him the body?

No. It is all argument from outrage and "what ifs" and even your thread title is "Probability"

Nothing but guesswork and doubt without any evidence whatsoever except your own incredulity. That isn't enough. It isn't actual evidence. It isn't historical. It is nothing. Nada.

I never claimed that Jesus was buried in a dirt trench. I simply suggested that it is a possibility because according to the experts, most poor people in first century Palestine were buried in dirt trenches. My larger thesis was that it is possible that the Empty Tomb story was a Markian invention, invented to counter Jewish and pagan claims that ghost sightings by grieving family and friends is not sufficient evidence for anyone to believe this fantastical Christian supernatural claim.

Evidence that this is a possibility comes from the other Gospels which many scholars believe include their own theological embellishments in their stories. Such embellishments would include Matthew's dead saints roaming the streets of Jerusalem, his guards at the tomb story, Jesus' prediction of "three days and three nights", and John's omission of a Passover meal and his changing of the day of the week of the crucifixion in order to make Jesus the Passover Lamb.

[Sparko]

I never claimed that Jesus was buried in a dirt trench. I simply suggested that it is a possibility because according to the experts, most poor people in first century Palestine were buried in dirt trenches. My larger thesis was that it is possible that the Empty Tomb story was a Markian invention, invented to counter Jewish and pagan claims that ghost sightings by grieving family and friends is not sufficient evidence for anyone to believe this fantastical Christian supernatural claim. Evidence that this is a possibility comes from the other Gospels which many scholars believe include theological embellishments in their stories. Such embellishments would include Matthew's dead saints roaming the streets story and his guards at the tomb story and John's omission of a Passover meal and change of days for the crucifixion in order to make Jesus the Passover Lamb.

like I said, it is all guesses, and "what ifs" and simply disbelief of the gospels. That is not evidence. That is just Gary doubting. Nobody cares. If you want to convince anyone, you need actual evidence, not just guesses.

[Cow Poke]

I never claimed that Jesus was buried in a dirt trench.

You're not looking for truth. Your extreme prejudice forces you to make the most uncharitable assumptions and use the most negative language. You build extremely "out there" scenarios, then ask, "so, what would X think....."

I don't think it is possible for you to look objectively at this because of your intense bias against Christianity.

[Gary]

like I said, it is all guesses, and "what ifs" and simply disbelief of the gospels. That is not evidence. That is just Gary doubting. Nobody cares. If you want to convince anyone, you need actual evidence, not just guesses.

I am not trying to convince anyone that the Resurrection did NOT happen.

I can no more disprove the Resurrection than I can disprove that a god named Zeus at one time lived on Mt. Olympus. It is impossible to disprove most supernatural claims. I am simply trying to demonstrate that the oft repeated conservative Christian claim that the only plausible explanation for the early Christian resurrection belief is a literal bodily resurrection is blatantly false and indefensible.

Yes, it is possible that a literal, bodily resurrection occurred, but other plausible explanations for the Resurrection belief exist. I have demonstrated this most recently with our discussion on the possibility that the Empty Tomb was a fictional embellishment, in addition to other discussions in my year long discussions here on TW involving other plausible, naturalistic alternatives such as that someone moved the body. Stein has given evidence that this is exactly what the Jews of Jesus day believed, so the idea that no Jew would have moved the body is proven false.

There are several if not many very plausible, alternative, natural explanations for the early Christian Resurrection belief. Christians who say there are not are closing their eyes and stuffing their fingers in their ears to avoid the evidence, no differently and no less ridiculously, than the mythicists who ignore the evidence for a historical Jesus.

[Adrift]

I am not trying to convince anyone that the Resurrection did NOT happen.

Yes you are. That's been your only reason for posting here from day one.

[Sparko]

I am not trying to convince anyone that the Resurrection did NOT happen.

right. That is ALL you do in all of your threads.

You just don't do it very well.

[Cow Poke]

I am not trying to convince anyone that the Resurrection did NOT happen.

Yes you are. That's been your only reason for posting here from day one.

OR, perhaps he's trying to convince himself.

[Gary]

Yes you are. That's been your only reason for posting here from day one.

Correction: "I am not trying to prove to anyone that the Resurrection did NOT happen."

You are correct, I very much am trying to convince people not to believe this supernatural claim. But not because it is impossible and disprovable, but because it is so very, very, very improbable. It is no more probable to be true than are the supernatural claims of ancient Egypt, Greece, and Rome.

[Adrift]

Correction: "I am not trying to prove to anyone that the Resurrection did NOT happen."

You are correct, I very much am trying to convince people not to believe this supernatural claim. But not because it is impossible and disprovable, but because it is so very, very, very improbable. It is no more probable to be true than are the supernatural claims of ancient Egypt, Greece, and Rome.

You keep telling yourself that.

[Gary]

You keep telling yourself that.

Thank, you. I will and to anyone else willing to listen.

I am honored that you in particular have spent so much time listening to what I have had to say.

[DesertBerean]

Gary, I don't know what you're trying to tell yourself, but your tactics don't convince me (or anyone else, apparently) of your sincerity. You have a sense of humor, and I appreciate that. However, I don't trust your efforts to dialogue with anyone. So far, for example - correct me, anybody - you haven't responded to Sparko's correction of your quote of Magness, which demolishes your OP.

Knock yourself out on your efforts to convince us of your beliefs, but please change your tactics.

[Adrift]

Thank, you. I will and to anyone else willing to listen.

I am honored that you in particular have spent so much time listening to what I have had to say.

Oh, I play some Yakety Sax in the background and pretend I'm watching Benny Hill.

[Gary]

Gary, I don't know what you're trying to tell yourself, but your tactics don't convince me (or anyone else, apparently) of your sincerity. You have a sense of humor, and I appreciate that. However, I don't trust your efforts to dialogue with anyone. So far, for example - correct me, anybody - you haven't responded to Sparko's correction of your quote of Magness, which demolishes your OP.

Knock yourself out on your efforts to convince us of your beliefs, but please change your tactics.

I don't recall seeing a comment from Sparko on Magness' quote (and at the moment, I am too lazy to go hunting for it), but I do remember seeing yours---without any explanation for your accusation.

Here is Magness' quote again. Please point out my "error" in using her quote:



---Jodi Magness, NT scholar

[Gary]

Oh, I play some Yakety Sax in the background and pretend I'm watching Benny Hill.

I am still deeply gratified by your attention.

:)

[Cow Poke]

I am still deeply gratified by your attention.

:)

Yakkety yak - don't talk back....