Gary & Rhinestone's Thread on Burial and Resurrection of Christ

[One Bad Pig]

I don't hate people, but I do hate deadly, discrimination-inciting, fear-based superstitions.

Then you should be fine with Christianity.

[Gary]

Define "early." The Toledot Yeshu, which is probably from the 4th century, states that Jesus was buried and his body stolen by the gardener.

Does this document claim who buried him? The Sanhedrin? The Romans? Family? His disciples? And does the document say in "what" Jesus was buried? A rock tomb or a dirt grave?

Thanks, Stein.

[One Bad Pig]

Come to my town sometime, and I'll take you out for a beer. I don't hate Christians, not even fundamentalist Christians.

Mr. Poke hasn't had a drop since it was legal. Don't make him break that streak.

[Cow Poke]

Mr. Poke hasn't had a drop since it was legal. Don't make him break that streak.

You say the sweetest things, OBP!

[Gary]

Then you should be fine with Christianity.

I definitely believe that large swaths of Christianity meet that definition. As I have said elsewhere, I believe that the majority of Christians in the United States, at least, are kind, good, generous, reasonable people.

[Gary]

Mr. Poke hasn't had a drop since it was legal. Don't make him break that streak.

Then I'll buy him a soda.

:)

I'm actually very fun to hang out with. We should just agree in advance not to discuss religion or politics and we would have a great time.

[One Bad Pig]

I definitely believe that large swaths of Christianity meet that definition. As I have said elsewhere, I believe that the majority of Christians in the United States, at least, are kind, good, generous, reasonable people.

I'd be fine with that, if you didn't somehow equate that with universalism.

[Gary]

I'd be fine with that, if you didn't somehow equate that with universalism.

I probably overstated my claim on "universalism". Maybe part of it is that I live in a fairly liberal part of the country (the West Coast)...the evangelicals and even many of the Baptists drink beer here! (The Southern Baptists at least, not the fundamentalist Baptists), so it is hard for me to believe that "most" Christians believe that non-Christians will be sent somewhere for all eternity (or even for a significant time period) to be punished.

Christians in general are very, very kind and generous in my community.

[One Bad Pig]

I probably overstated my claim on "universalism". Maybe part of it is that I live in a fairly liberal part of the country (the West Coast)...the evangelicals and even many of the Baptists drink beer here! (The Southern Baptists at least, not the fundamentalist Baptists), so it is hard for me to believe that "most" Christians believe that non-Christians will be sent somewhere for all eternity (or even for a significant time period) to be punished.

Christians in general are very, very kind and generous in my community.

The interesting thing is that the Temperance movement was very much a progressive, not conservative, movement. I've never had an issue with drinking alcohol, though I got my dad really, really mad when I was about 14 for deciding that since, he'd had a couple glasses of wine with his meal, I was going to walk home from the restaurant.

[Gary]

The interesting thing is that the Temperance movement was very much a progressive, not conservative, movement. I've never had an issue with drinking alcohol, though I got my dad really, really mad when I was about 14 for deciding that since, he'd had a couple glasses of wine with his meal, I was going to walk home from the restaurant.

Smart kid. Drinking and driving is not good.

[psstein]

Does this document claim who buried him? The Sanhedrin? The Romans? Family? His disciples? And does the document say in "what" Jesus was buried? A rock tomb or a dirt grave?

Thanks, Stein.

You can read it yourself here: http://jewishchristianlit.com//Topic.../toledoth.html

Here's the relevant section:

...They buried him outside the city.

On the first day of the week his bold followers came to Queen Helene with the report that he who was slain was truly the Messiah and that he was not in his grave; he had ascended to heaven as he prophesied. Diligent search was made and he was not found in the grave where he had been buried. A gardener had taken him from the grave and had brought him into his garden and buried him in the sand over which the waters flowed into the garden.

The text suggests that Jesus had been buried in a tomb for criminals. Admittedly, this is not a particularly reliable source for Christian Origins. It's more a piece of evidence in understanding how Jews responded to Christians, much like the Gospel of John is for understanding the Jewish-Christian divide.

[Sparko]

" Christianity is the world's largest religion, and it's growing. It's the largest religion in the very country that you live in. If it defied "common" sense, then no one would believe it, but millions and millions of people do."

Logical Fallacy: Argumentum ad Populum

And your (and Rhinestone's) entire argument is argument from outrage and silence. No actual positive evidence whatsoever to disprove the accepted documentary evidence.

[Gary]

And your (and Rhinestone's) entire argument is argument from outrage and silence. No actual positive evidence whatsoever to disprove the accepted documentary evidence.

Documents? Yes. Every claim within them accepted as absolute fact? No.

The key to understanding the Gospels is to examine them just as we would any other ancient text to determine which parts of the text are historical fact and which parts are metaphorical/fiction. The black and white view that the Bible is either all right or all wrong is not intelligent. The consensus of scholars is that the crucifixion of Jesus is fact. The consensus of scholars is that the resurrection belief began very shortly after Jesus death. And a majority of scholars believe in the historicity of the Empty Tomb. But I seriously doubt that too many scholars are going to stick their necks out and say that the Virgin Birth, Jesus' water walking on the Sea of Galilee, the bodily Resurrection, and the Ascension are historical facts.

The latter category of claims must be believed by faith, not by "facts".

[Gary]

You can read it yourself here: http://jewishchristianlit.com//Topic.../toledoth.html

Here's the relevant section:



The text suggests that Jesus had been buried in a tomb for criminals. Admittedly, this is not a particularly reliable source for Christian Origins. It's more a piece of evidence in understanding how Jews responded to Christians, much like the Gospel of John is for understanding the Jewish-Christian divide.

Thanks for the link.

[Sparko]

Documents? Yes. Every claim within them accepted as absolute fact? No.

The key to understanding the Gospels is to examine them just as we would any other ancient text to determine which parts of the text are historical fact and which parts are metaphorical/fiction. The black and white view that the Bible is either all right or all wrong is not intelligent. The consensus of scholars is that the crucifixion of Jesus is fact. The consensus of scholars is that the resurrection belief began very shortly after Jesus death. And a majority of scholars believe in the historicity of the Empty Tomb. But I seriously doubt that too many scholars are going to stick their necks out and say that the Virgin Birth, Jesus' water walking on the Sea of Galilee, the bodily Resurrection, and the Ascension are historical facts.

The latter category of claims must be believed by faith, not by "facts".

and yet all you can do is say "nuh-uh!" - you have not provided one shred of evidence that anything in the gospels is wrong. Have you any actual evidence that Jesus was buried in a trench? That there was no Joseph of Arimethea? That Pilate did not give him the body?

No. It is all argument from outrage and "what ifs" and even your thread title is "Probability"

Nothing but guesswork and doubt without any evidence whatsoever except your own incredulity. That isn't enough. It isn't actual evidence. It isn't historical. It is nothing. Nada.