Gary & Rhinestone's Thread on Burial and Resurrection of Christ

[Adrift]

Yes, it is unfortunate. Adrift and I just cannot have a civil conversation that lasts more than a couple of exchanges.

Bottom line: Skeptics like myself cannot prove that Jesus was not buried in a rock mausoleum provided by a member of the very group that so desperately wanted to snuff him out. But I believe that I and others skeptics on this thread have done a reasonable job in providing a case that it is very possible that he was not; that he was buried in a dirt trench as was the custom of the time.

Without the Empty Tomb, the evidence for the Resurrection belief comes down to claims of seeing a dead man (a brain-dead, dead man) alive again. We skeptics believe that such a phenomenon only occurs in the world of science fiction. Possible, yes. Probable, absolutely not. Believers in the supernatural believe such a phenomenon is very possible. The question I ask everyone to consider is this: Based on collective human experience, which explanation for the Resurrection belief is more probable:

-A never heard of before or since supernatural event really did happen

or

-Jesus' emotionally devastated family friends saw what they wanted to see: their loved one alive again.



You decide.

I mean...I'm pretty sure he's decided..

[Gary]

Hey Gary, does spittle run down your chin when you type this?

Very intelligent, mature comment, especially for someone who is moderating the discussion.

[Gary]

We have records of the Jews disputing the gospels much later than the second century. None of those were eyewitnesses. But you seem to be implying that the Jewish enemies of the church did not pass on where Jesus actually was buried. It only took 40-some years for the Jews to accept that a crucified man was (or at least, could be) buried by a member of the Sanhedrin in his own personal grave. Huh. That seems to be a better argument for its reality than its denial.

Do you have proof that the majority of Jews then or ever have accepted the Christian claim that a member of the Sanhedrin buried Jesus in his expensive personal tomb?

[Gary]

We do have some idea:

Luke 8:2-3 ESV

[2] and also some women who had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities: Mary, called Magdalene, from whom seven demons had gone out, [3] and Joanna, the wife of Chuza, Herod's household manager, and Susanna, and many others, who provided for them out of their means.

Joanna would have been wealthy (can't comment on Susanna but the fact that she is mentioned by name with no other qualification would indicate she was well known)

Luke again mentions Joanna as being one of the women who went to the tomb to find it empty:
Luke 24:10 ESV

[10] Now it was Mary Magdalene and Joanna and Mary the mother of James and the other women with them who told these things to the apostles,

ETA: Additionally it can be concluded that Lazarus, Martha and Mary were quite wealthy given that Mary was able to purchase perfume and ointment that costs the average of a years wages

So the anonymous story tellers say...

[Gary]

No, I'm not using an illogical fallacy by asserting that a commonly held belief does not defy common sense.



That's not exactly the definition of common sense I had in mind. The definition of common sense I had in mind was:

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_sense

Common sense is a basic ability to perceive, understand, and judge things, which is shared by ("common to") nearly all people and can reasonably be expected of nearly all people without any need for debate.

© Copyright Original Source

But in either case, there is absolutely nothing about the idea of Joseph of Arimathea burying Jesus in his tomb that defies common sense. Again, to the contrary, nearly a third of the humans on this planet believe it.

In using this definition, you need to define "all people". If you are trying to claim that all Jews, Muslims, and Hindus in the world believe this Christian claim to be common-sensical, I'd like to see the evidence.

[Raphael]

So the anonymous story tellers say...

You sound like a broken record Gary.

[Cow Poke]

Very intelligent, mature comment, especially for someone who is moderating the discussion.

You just seem so full of hate.

And... moderating this discussion?

[psstein]

Do you have proof that the majority of Jews then or ever have accepted the Christian claim that a member of the Sanhedrin buried Jesus in his expensive personal tomb?

Early Jewish polemics suggested that Jesus' body had been stolen by the disciples.

[Cow Poke]

Early Jewish polemics suggested that Jesus' body had been stolen by the disciples.

Yeah, don't forget the swoon theory, too.

[Gary]

You just seem so full of hate.

And... moderating this discussion?

I don't hate people, but I do hate deadly, discrimination-inciting, fear-based superstitions.

[Cow Poke]

I don't hate people, but I do hate deadly, discrimination-inciting, fear-based superstitions.

Sure, Gary. Sure.

[Gary]

Early Jewish polemics suggested that Jesus' body had been stolen by the disciples.

Is there any evidence in early Jewish writings that the Jews believed in the historicity of the Christian claim that a member of the Sanhedrin, Joseph of Arimathea, provided a rock tomb to bury Jesus? If so, would you kindly give me a reference? I would like to read about that.

[Gary]

Sure, Gary. Sure.

Come to my town sometime, and I'll take you out for a beer. I don't hate Christians, not even fundamentalist Christians.

[psstein]

Is there any evidence in early Jewish writings that the Jews believed in the historicity of the Christian claim that a member of the Sanhedrin, Joseph of Arimathea, provided a rock tomb to bury Jesus? If so, would you kindly give me a reference? I would like to read about that.

Define "early." The Toledot Yeshu, which is probably from the 4th century, states that Jesus was buried and his body stolen by the gardener.

[Adrift]

Do you have proof that the majority of Jews then or ever have accepted the Christian claim that a member of the Sanhedrin buried Jesus in his expensive personal tomb?

There are a number of things wrong with this sentence. First, I don't know anyone who has ever argued that the "majority of Jews then" had even heard of the Christian faith. So, that's neither here nor there. Second, there's little in the way of "proof" concerning anything when it comes to reconstructing ancient history. Instead we rely on evidence not "proof".

So really, your question should be framed, "Do you have evidence that the Jewish enemies of Christianity then or ever have accepted the Christian claim that a member of the Sanhedrin buried Jesus in his expensive personal tomb?"

Now, as far as "then" is concerned, the answer is, yes, I do. Not much, but a little. I have four early 1st century sources that report an event which the early Jewish enemies must have been aware of, and I have Jewish arguments against the missing body, and the resurrection, but none of them happen to have anything to do with the inconceivability that Jesus was buried in Arimathea's grave. As far as "ever" is concerned, I don't think it's really that controversial among Jews throughout history that Jesus was buried in Arimathea's grave. The controversy seems to largely be that he was raised at all.