Originally posted by Cow Poke
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While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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Is ordination of women to be Pastors [Overseer/Bishop] orthodox?
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For a little bit more evidence, here is what textual critic Helmut Koester has to say about Phoebe and others:
Last edited by Jesse; 02-23-2015, 06:55 PM."Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)
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Originally posted by Truthseeker View PostSuggested change of your post, within double brackets, shown above.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Jesse View Post
That is just a small piece of a larger picture though.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Truthseeker View PostThe ESV of the Bible does not have "pastor." What do you mean by that word?The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostThere's an awful lot of assumin' goin' on there."Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)
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Originally posted by Jesse View PostPossibly. I think if you take the evidence in totality though, it makes a pretty strong case for women being more than just helpers in the New Testament.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostI think women were more than just helpers in the New Testament. I just don't think they were the heads of local congregations."Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)
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Originally posted by Jesse View PostIndeed. And we are told by Paul what most of those where. The thing is, Paul uses the term of Deacon to describe Phoebe. It is the same word he uses for himself. So Rom 16:1-2 does seem to imply she was a minister of the church of Cenchreae.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostI'm familiar with that claim - did some research on that way back in college. Can't remember exactly what I found, but I'll take another look at that. I noted, however, that you used the phrase "a minister" --- was that to avoid claiming she was the pastor, or bishop, or head of that Church?
I think if we are going to try to debate "Pastor" or "Minister", we would be debating semantics."Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)
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Originally posted by Jesse View PostI think if we are going to try to debate "Pastor" or "Minister", we would be debating semantics.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostWell, kind of, but "minister" could be "children's minister" in our day --- so let's stick with "Overseer/Bishop" as in the thread title."Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)
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Originally posted by Jesse View PostTrue. But we are not talking about our day.
I don't see where there would be much of a difference in the ANE over Minister, Overseer, or Bishop. If there were such a distinction between Minister and Overseer/Bishop in the ANE, I would like to see it.
It will probably be sometime tomorrow before I can look at this - but I will!The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostYeah, I know --- which is why I reverted to the thread title.
I don't have a clue! Haven't had a chance to look into this yet, and I think I posted earlier -- this is not the hill I want to die on.
It will probably be sometime tomorrow before I can look at this - but I will!"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)
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Originally posted by Catholicity View PostThe first place to affirm a Woman's Role in the beginning of the Church's Ministry is in the Book of Acts.Originally posted by Acts1:12-1412 Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day's journey away. 13 And when they had entered, they went up to the upper room, where they were staying, Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot and Judas the son of James. 14 All these with one accord were devoting themselves to prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and his brothers.. . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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