Is ordination of women to be Pastors [Overseer/Bishop] orthodox?

[Cow Poke]

I heavily lean toward allowing women to be pastors but I admit that the "plain reading" of the 1 Timothy text does seem to indicate otherwise. I don't fault people for defaulting with that view if they're not convinced to be on the safe side.

WHY do you "heavily lean" toward that? On what basis? Would you "heavily lean" toward a wife being the head of the home?

[Cerebrum123]

I'll try to get back to this later, right now I'm a bit worn out. I woke up earlier than normal(couldn't sleep), and I had to get a shower.

[Cow Poke]

Deborah led all of Israel as a judge,

Yup

and we have Junia and Priscilla as either an "apostle" or a "co-worker" of Paul.

We know precious little about Junia, and slightly more about Priscilla. We don't know that either of them were pastors.

There's a lot of things in the Bible you just won't get at "face value", and lead to all kinds of unnecessary conflicts*, and general messiness. A lot of other things need to be taken into consideration, such as ancient Greek/Hebrew, and cultural considerations.

*Genesis 1 and 2 being "contradictory", Jephthah's daughter being a "human sacrifice", Elisha and the 42 "kids" etc. are just a few things that come to mind.

Sure - I'm just not seeing any support for women being pastors. "Pastor" is a New Testament role. "The Church" as we know it*, began with Christ.

[Cow Poke]

...to be clear, I see this argument about headship as weak as it relates to what ministries a woman may engage in. When the Holy Spirit came down a Pentecost, both men and women received it, as indicated by the text and by Peter quoting from Joel.

I've been reading the OT more these days...and I've noticed that when they speak of the Spirit of God, it serves as a sign that God has chosen, or spoken, and that is the final say on the matter. But I'm still studying ...

Again, I just don't think the headship of the husband should be used as an argument here.

And you're certainly entitled to your opinion, and you're still one of my most favorite Twebbers!

This is certainly not a hill I want to die on --- there are plenty of Churches out there where a woman can, indeed, be a pastor or a priest. Unless and until the Lord shows me otherwise, it won't be happening in any Church where I serve.

On a practical note, the Churches I know where a woman is serving as pastor or priest are not very healthy, and one of the reasons seems to be that they (boy, this is gonna cause sparks) couldn't find a suitable male pastor. I'm sure there are exceptions, but my own experience has shown that the female-pastored Churches seem to be rather frail.

Then, of course, there's Joyce Meyers.

[Cow Poke]

Maybe read one post more fully before moving on to the next?

What fun is THAT?!?!?!

[KingsGambit]

WHY do you "heavily lean" toward that? On what basis? Would you "heavily lean" toward a wife being the head of the home?

I tend to think that the 1 Timothy instructions applied just to that church because Paul gave somewhat different advice to different churches, and we do see women with various strong roles (including apostle) elsewhere in the New Testament. That's why I think Paul was operating on a case by case basis on this issue. (Example; Paul's instructions to women being quiet in church can't be absolute in all circumstances because elsewhere in the NT we do see women being allowed to prophecy in church, etc.)

I'm going to punt on the family headship question because I am not sure how much of it is cultural. I know most of the time the father does take that role.

[Cow Poke]

I tend to think that the 1 Timothy instructions applied just to that church because Paul gave somewhat different advice to different churches, and we do see women with various strong roles (including apostle) elsewhere in the New Testament.

The thing in 1 Tim wasn't "advice" - it was a statement of Paul's practice.

I'm going to punt on the family headship question because I am not sure how much of it is cultural. I know most of the time the father does take that role.

I think this is why the Christian Church - particularly in America - is in so much trouble, and our families are so often in chaos - because men won't take the proper biblical role of spiritual leadership in their families.

Any organism with more than one head is a monster, and any organism without a head is dead.

(OK, there are weird critters in the universe that may defy this reasoning - but note - they are WEIRD critters)

[KingsGambit]

The thing in 1 Tim wasn't "advice" - it was a statement of Paul's practice.



I think this is why the Christian Church - particularly in America - is in so much trouble, and our families are so often in chaos - because men won't take the proper biblical role of spiritual leadership in their families.

Any organism with more than one head is a monster, and any organism without a head is dead.

(OK, there are weird critters in the universe that may defy this reasoning - but note - they are WEIRD critters)

Let's call them instructions, then. The instructions still varied based on church and based on situation (note the example with whether women can speak on church; if you take all Paul's instructions on that to different churches as applying for all time, you've got a contradiction.)

[Cow Poke]

Let's call them instructions, then. The instructions still varied based on church and based on situation (note the example with whether women can speak on church; if you take all Paul's instructions on that to different churches as applying for all time, you've got a contradiction.)

You can call them instructions -- I call it a statement from Paul, God Breathed.

"I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet."

[KingsGambit]

You can call them instructions -- I call it a statement from Paul, God Breathed.

"I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet."

Yes. And what is in dispute is whether that to apply to that particular church or universally.

[Cerebrum123]

Yes. And what is in dispute is whether that to apply to that particular church or universally.

Don't forget the debate over what "assume authority" means.


Yeah, I know, back to resting.

[KingsGambit]

Don't forget the debate over what "assume authority" means.


Yeah, I know, back to resting.

I don't think that's going to be much help to the egalitarian position because "stay quiet" is pretty clear.

[Cow Poke]

Yes. And what is in dispute is whether that to apply to that particular church or universally.

But it needs to be considered in absence of any biblical support for a female pastor, and the general theme that a husband should be the head of his wife.

There are five positions of authority in the Bible

God over man
Government over the governed
Master over slave (yeah, some will have a field day with that one, but it's there)
Husband over wife
Pastor / elder / bishop over the Church

None of these is supposed to be a "hey, I'm the boss", but part of God's plan for order.

[Cerebrum123]

I don't think that's going to be much help to the egalitarian position because "stay quiet" is pretty clear.

You do know that men being taught were to "stay quiet" as well, right?

[KingsGambit]

I was hoping not to get into an extended debate because I freely admit I have a lot more work to do on that issue; I was just trying to answer the question as to why I presently take the stance I do.