Originally posted by KingsGambit
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While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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Is ordination of women to be Pastors [Overseer/Bishop] orthodox?
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Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View PostDeborah led all of Israel as a judge,
and we have Junia and Priscilla as either an "apostle" or a "co-worker" of Paul.
There's a lot of things in the Bible you just won't get at "face value", and lead to all kinds of unnecessary conflicts*, and general messiness. A lot of other things need to be taken into consideration, such as ancient Greek/Hebrew, and cultural considerations.
*Genesis 1 and 2 being "contradictory", Jephthah's daughter being a "human sacrifice", Elisha and the 42 "kids" etc. are just a few things that come to mind.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by DesertBerean View Post...to be clear, I see this argument about headship as weak as it relates to what ministries a woman may engage in. When the Holy Spirit came down a Pentecost, both men and women received it, as indicated by the text and by Peter quoting from Joel.
I've been reading the OT more these days...and I've noticed that when they speak of the Spirit of God, it serves as a sign that God has chosen, or spoken, and that is the final say on the matter. But I'm still studying ...
Again, I just don't think the headship of the husband should be used as an argument here.
This is certainly not a hill I want to die on --- there are plenty of Churches out there where a woman can, indeed, be a pastor or a priest. Unless and until the Lord shows me otherwise, it won't be happening in any Church where I serve.
On a practical note, the Churches I know where a woman is serving as pastor or priest are not very healthy, and one of the reasons seems to be that they (boy, this is gonna cause sparks) couldn't find a suitable male pastor. I'm sure there are exceptions, but my own experience has shown that the female-pastored Churches seem to be rather frail.
Then, of course, there's Joyce Meyers.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View PostMaybe read one post more fully before moving on to the next?The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostWHY do you "heavily lean" toward that? On what basis? Would you "heavily lean" toward a wife being the head of the home?
I'm going to punt on the family headship question because I am not sure how much of it is cultural. I know most of the time the father does take that role."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostI tend to think that the 1 Timothy instructions applied just to that church because Paul gave somewhat different advice to different churches, and we do see women with various strong roles (including apostle) elsewhere in the New Testament.
I'm going to punt on the family headship question because I am not sure how much of it is cultural. I know most of the time the father does take that role.
Any organism with more than one head is a monster, and any organism without a head is dead.
(OK, there are weird critters in the universe that may defy this reasoning - but note - they are WEIRD critters)The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostThe thing in 1 Tim wasn't "advice" - it was a statement of Paul's practice.
I think this is why the Christian Church - particularly in America - is in so much trouble, and our families are so often in chaos - because men won't take the proper biblical role of spiritual leadership in their families.
Any organism with more than one head is a monster, and any organism without a head is dead.
(OK, there are weird critters in the universe that may defy this reasoning - but note - they are WEIRD critters)"I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostLet's call them instructions, then. The instructions still varied based on church and based on situation (note the example with whether women can speak on church; if you take all Paul's instructions on that to different churches as applying for all time, you've got a contradiction.)
"I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet."The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostYou can call them instructions -- I call it a statement from Paul, God Breathed.
"I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.""I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View PostDon't forget the debate over what "assume authority" means.
Yeah, I know, back to resting."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostYes. And what is in dispute is whether that to apply to that particular church or universally.
There are five positions of authority in the Bible
God over man
Government over the governed
Master over slave (yeah, some will have a field day with that one, but it's there)
Husband over wife
Pastor / elder / bishop over the Church
None of these is supposed to be a "hey, I'm the boss", but part of God's plan for order.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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I was hoping not to get into an extended debate because I freely admit I have a lot more work to do on that issue; I was just trying to answer the question as to why I presently take the stance I do."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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