Cornelius and Total Depravity

[footwasher]

This does not square with Jesus. “And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.” John 3:19 (KJV 1900)

The full context of your verse :


John 3:19“This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
20“For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
21“But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

John 3:19 is talking about the response of SOME men, not all men, by loving the darkness. This is confirmed by v21 which deals with the response of others who HAVE come to the light, by practicing the truth, NOT by being irresistibly changed by God.

[NorrinRadd]

If by a miracle God would turn a dog into a cat, the cat would think and act like a cat. And o it is with salvation by grace. He turns unbelievers into believers. Paul says we are a new creation. So we do by nature all that saved people naturally do. Prevenient grace would have people act like Christians even though they remain unchanged in the heart.

You do not understand the term, "prevenient grace."

And you overstate the extent to which regeneration changes us, else there would have been no need for virtually anything written in the Epistles.

[Dave L]

The full context of your verse :


John 3:19“This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
20“For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
21“But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

John 3:19 is talking about the response of SOME men, not all men, by loving the darkness. This is confirmed by v21 which deals with the response of others who HAVE come to the light, by practicing the truth, NOT by being irresistibly changed by God.

Cornelius was one of these born again that came to the light. Why rob God of his glory and attribute the fruits of the new birth to Cornelius and not to God? DO you know how serious this is? Do you think you saved yourself?

[footwasher]

Cornelius was one of these born again that came to the light. Why rob God of his glory and attribute the fruits of the new birth to Cornelius and not to God? DO you know how serious this is? Do you think you saved yourself?

Stick to proving my post wrong. Or provide a contextual, complete and coherent explanation of why you think all men love darkness, because their deeds were evil.

Besides how can Cornelius be born again if he received the Holy Spirit only after he met Peter, that is after he saw the light and called for Peter?

And Caleb had a different spirit, was born again, only after he had drank from the Rock, accepted the ministering of the Holy Spirit. Others drank from the Rock, but the experience did not profit them, and they could not enter Rest, could not be set apart to be blessings to the world, be sanctified to be vessels of honor.

[Dave L]

Stick to proving my post wrong. Or provide a contextual, complete and coherent explanation of why you think all men love darkness, because their deeds were evil.

Besides how can Cornelius be born again if he received the Holy Spirit only after he met Peter, that is after he saw the light and called for Peter?

And Caleb had a different spirit, was born again, only after he had drank from the Rock, accepted the ministering of the Holy Spirit. Others drank from the Rock, but the experience did not profit them, and they could not enter Rest, could not be set apart to be blessings to the world, be sanctified to be vessels of honor.

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. Flesh faith cannot save. Born again people exist all the way to Eden. You cannot understand the gospel unless first born again.

[footwasher]

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. Flesh faith cannot save. Born again people exist all the way to Eden. You cannot understand the gospel unless first born again.

Yes the Holy Spirit is given when people hear and believe, become justified. Then if they drink from the Spirit and are fruitful, have a strenghtened faith, like Caleb, they can enter Rest, be sanctified, be set apart for honorable use, become blessings to the world, draw others like Rahab to God.

By the way, what is your explanation of the Gospel? What is the Gospel?

[Dave L]

Yes the Holy Spirit is given when people hear and believe, become justified. Then if they drink from the Spirit and are fruitful, have a strenghtened faith, like Caleb, they can enter Rest, be sanctified, be set apart for honorable use, become blessings to the world, draw others like Rahab to God.

By the way, what is your explanation of the Gospel? What is the Gospel?

You must already have the Holy Spirit before you can hear and believe. Remember, faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

[footwasher]

You must already have the Holy Spirit before you can hear and believe. Remember, faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

Your fight is with God's word:

Gal 3:2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? ^a4Have you experienced ^b so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?

[Dave L]

Your fight is with God's word:

Gal 3:2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? ^a4Have you experienced ^b so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?

It says they began in the spirit.

[footwasher]

It says they began in the spirit.

Wrong. It says they began by hearing and believing. To be justified, given the Spirit. AFTERWARDS, they tried to continue with works of the law, to be sanctified, to enter the Kingdom, be set apart as vessels of honor, being blessings to the world. Paul said they should continue with hearing and believing. As did the writer of Hebrews:

Heb 4:7He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before,
“TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS.”

8For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that. 9So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. 10For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. 11Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.

Heb 3:16For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses? 17And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.

[Dave L]

Wrong. It says they began by hearing and believing. To be justified, given the Spirit. AFTERWARDS, they tried to continue with works of the law, to be sanctified, to enter the Kingdom, be set apart as vessels of honor, being blessings to the world. Paul said they should continue with hearing and believing. As did the writer of Hebrews:

Heb 4:7He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before,
“TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS.”

8For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that. 9So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. 10For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. 11Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.

Only those with the Holy Spirit can hear and believe.

[footwasher]

Only those with the Holy Spirit can hear and believe.

Would you agree that God's Word says they heard and believed and THEN received the Holy Spirit?

Gal 3:2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?

[Dave L]

Would you agree that God's Word says they heard and believed and THEN received the Holy Spirit?

Gal 3:2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?

If faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, how can you be right?

[footwasher]

If faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, how can you be right?

Faith is courage.

Have faith, be brave, go into the Land.

This was the command given by God.

He expected them to have been strengthened by the ministering of the Holy Spirit. It is the change which happens when people benefit from the ground, the rain, the strengthening of the Holy Spirit. The change is called having another spirit, being born again, through the edification by the Holy Spirit.

Which they received by hearing and believing.

Numbers 14:21“Yet as surely as I live and as surely as the whole earth is filled with the glory of the LORD, 22not one of the men who have seen My glory and the signs I performed in Egypt and in the wilderness—yet have tested Me and disobeyed Me these ten times— 23not one will ever see the land that I swore to give their fathers. None of those who have treated Me with contempt will see it.

24But because My servant Caleb has a different spirit and has followed Me wholeheartedly, I will bring him into the land he has entered, and his descendants will inherit it.

God intentionally did not remove the Canaanites from the Land. He used them to test if the trust that Israel promised they had in Him, their courage was real. Because being blessings to the world required them to pick up crosses.

[Dave L]

Faith is courage.

Have faith, be brave, go into the Land.

This was the command given by God.

He expected them to have been strengthened by the ministering of the Holy Spirit. It is the change which happens when people benefit from the ground, the rain, the strengthening of the Holy Spirit. The change is called having another spirit, being born again, through the edification by the Holy Spirit.

Which they received by hearing and believing.

Numbers 14:21“Yet as surely as I live and as surely as the whole earth is filled with the glory of the LORD, 22not one of the men who have seen My glory and the signs I performed in Egypt and in the wilderness—yet have tested Me and disobeyed Me these ten times— 23not one will ever see the land that I swore to give their fathers. None of those who have treated Me with contempt will see it.

24But because My servant Caleb has a different spirit and has followed Me wholeheartedly, I will bring him into the land he has entered, and his descendants will inherit it.

God intentionally did not remove the Canaanites from the Land. He used them to test if the trust that Israel promised they had in Him, their courage was real. Because being blessings to the world required them to pick up crosses.

Human faith is not Holy Spirit faith. People think it saves them but it cannot discern spiritual truth. It chooses only idols it calls by Christ's name.