Cornelius and Total Depravity

[Dave L]

Scripture tells us God approaches EVERYBODY, in the hope they will ALL turn to Him, seeking Him, to find Him, because we are ALL His children. He shows them their life is futile, harming each other and still only getting treasure that perishes.

Acts 17:26From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ ^b As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’

We can see this in Jacob's family. They were selfish and directionless. God gave Joseph a dream which resulted in travelling to Egypt, where their condition was magnified. With one difference: in Egypt, they were at the bottom of the food chain and suffered the most. Their eyes were opened and they called out to God for deliverance. I'm sure this happens to everyone. We expect to survive life, and God reveals the harm in the world system and the poor returns achievable. The nobler minded turn to God. Others love the darkness, and try to get room in Pharoah's palace...

He tells us he blinded the Jews of Jesus' day so they could not believe. “He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.” John 12:40 (KJV 1900)

“What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded” Romans 11:7 (KJV 1900)

“But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.” 2 Corinthians 3:14–15 (KJV 1900)

“In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.” 2 Corinthians 4:4 (KJV 1900)

“And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.” 1 Peter 2:8 (KJV 1900)

[footwasher]

He tells us he blinded the Jews of Jesus' day so they could not believe. “He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.” John 12:40 (KJV 1900)

“What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded” Romans 11:7 (KJV 1900)

“But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.” 2 Corinthians 3:14–15 (KJV 1900)

“In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.” 2 Corinthians 4:4 (KJV 1900)

“And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.” 1 Peter 2:8 (KJV 1900)

You are saying God is not reaching out to Israelites. Actually, He is. Everyday, we hear about individual Israelites becoming Christian. What God is NOT doing is lifting the hardening on Judaism, a group. All individual Jews have to do, to be safe, is to leave Judaism.

I repeat: God is reaching out to everybody, including Jews. He has not lifted the hardening on Judaism. When the required number of Gentiles are gathered in, He will remove the hardening. Judaism will become like Christianity.

[Dave L]

You are saying God is not reaching out to Israelites. Actually, He is. Everyday, we hear about individual Israelites becoming Christian. What God is NOT doing is lifting the hardening on Judaism, a group. All individual Jews have to do, to be safe, is to leave Judaism.

I repeat: God is reaching out to everybody, including Jews. He has not lifted the hardening on Judaism. When the required number of Gentiles are gathered in, He will remove the hardening. Judaism will become like Christianity.

We evangelize today's "Israelites". Many accept Christ and become members of Biblical Israel aka the Church. When Jesus abolished circumcision on the cross, that was the last generation of unbelieving Jews or Israelites. All unbelievers are gentiles now. Study circumcision and its role in the bible.

[Cow Poke]

You are saying God is not reaching out to Israelites. Actually, He is. Everyday, we hear about individual Israelites becoming Christian. What God is NOT doing is lifting the hardening on Judaism, a group. All individual Jews have to do, to be safe, is to leave Judaism.

I repeat: God is reaching out to everybody, including Jews. He has not lifted the hardening on Judaism. When the required number of Gentiles are gathered in, He will remove the hardening. Judaism will become like Christianity.

Your use of the word "Israelites" is really odd, as we're actually talking about modern day Jews. Nobody refers to them today as "Israelites" - that's a designation that referred to the Old Testament nation of Israel.

[footwasher]

We evangelize today's "Israelites". Many accept Christ and become members of Biblical Israel aka the Church. When Jesus abolished circumcision on the cross, that was the last generation of unbelieving Jews or Israelites. All unbelievers are gentiles now. Study circumcision and its role in the bible.

Your use of the word "Israelites" is really odd, as we're actually talking about modern day Jews. Nobody refers to them today as "Israelites" - that's a designation that referred to the Old Testament nation of Israel.

Paul says physical Israel still exists:

Romans 11:5In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. 6But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Because there are Jews who fast and tithe without neglecting the weightier requirements of the law (which John the Baptist also pointed out to correct was the error in the interpretation of the Pharisee observation of Torah), Israel has not become extinct:

Romans 9:29And just as Isaiah foretold,

“UNLESS THE LORD OF SABAOTH HAD LEFT TO US A POSTERITY,

WE WOULD HAVE BECOME LIKE SODOM, AND WOULD HAVE RESEMBLED GOMORRAH.”

So no pulling of plug.

So faithful Jews in Israel are still Israelites.

John 1:47Jesus saw Nathanael coming to Him, and said of him, “Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom there is no deceit!”

[Cow Poke]

Britannica:

Israelite,

descendant of the Hebrew patriarch Jacob, whose name was changed to Israel after an all-night fight at Penuel near the stream of Jabbok (Genesis 32:28). In early history, Israelites were simply members of the 12 tribes of Israel. After 930 bce and the establishment of two independent Hebrew kingdoms in Palestine, the 10 northern tribes constituting the kingdom of Israel were known as Israelites to distinguish them from the southern kingdom of Judah. The northern kingdom was conquered by the Assyrians in 721 bce, and its population was eventually absorbed by other peoples.

[Dave L]

Paul says physical Israel still exists:

Romans 11:5In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. 6But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Because there are Jews who fast and tithe without neglecting the weightier requirements of the law (which John the Baptist also pointed out to correct was the error in the interpretation of the Pharisee observation of Torah), Israel has not become extinct:

Romans 9:29And just as Isaiah foretold,

“UNLESS THE LORD OF SABAOTH HAD LEFT TO US A POSTERITY,

WE WOULD HAVE BECOME LIKE SODOM, AND WOULD HAVE RESEMBLED GOMORRAH.”

So no pulling of plug.

So faithful Jews in Israel are still Israelites.

John 1:47Jesus saw Nathanael coming to Him, and said of him, “Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom there is no deceit!”

God left them a posterity in Christ and the church to whom we invite to join.

[Cow Poke]

God left them a posterity in Christ and the church to whom we invite to join.

And, under the New Covenant, they join just as we do - by Grace through Faith. Not as "Israelites", but as the Redeemed of God.

[Dave L]

And, under the New Covenant, they join just as we do - by Grace through Faith. Not as "Israelites", but as the Redeemed of God.

Only Israel is saved. All believers become members. In fact, Jesus is referred to as Israel by Matthew and Paul. We are the people called by his name.

[Cow Poke]

Only Israel is saved. All believers become members. In fact, Jesus is referred to as Israel by Matthew and Paul. We are the people called by his name.

Yes, we are called Christians - because we are followers of the Christ. The Jerusalem Council (Acts 15) dealt with Jews becoming Christians, and the requirements that needed to be met. We do not become "Israelites".

[Dave L]

Yes, we are called Christians - because we are followers of the Christ. The Jerusalem Council (Acts 15) dealt with Jews becoming Christians, and the requirements that needed to be met. We do not become "Israelites".

God removed the unbelievers from Israel (Romans 11). And grafted believing gentiles into Israel. Jesus is the true vine.

[Cow Poke]

God removed the unbelievers from Israel (Romans 11). And grafted believing gentiles into Israel. Jesus is the true vine.

OK., I'll leave you guys to play word games -- we do NOT become "Israelites", and that's a term that refers to the Old Testament Jews.

[Dave L]

OK., I'll leave you guys to play word games -- we do NOT become "Israelites", and that's a term that refers to the Old Testament Jews.

But, Jesus is recognized as Israel in the NT. And we are the people called by his name. Are you aware of this?

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/devot...s-true-israel/

[footwasher]

God left them a posterity in Christ and the church to whom we invite to join.

So which nation has God not rejected?

Romans 11:1I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.2God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew.

Because God's gifts and calling are irrevocable, Israel cannot be cut off permanently:

Romans 11:28From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

[Cow Poke]

But, Jesus is recognized as Israel in the NT. And we are the people called by his name. Are you aware of this?

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/devot...s-true-israel/

I'm fully aware - but that doesn't change the fact that we do NOT become "Israelites". And the modern state of Israel is a democracy* - not the theocracy that the Old Testament Israel was.


*though, many secular Jews in Israel are very concerned that Israel is on the road to a theocracy