Cornelius and Total Depravity

[footwasher]

Circumcision, not birth, made one a physical Jew (religion) or physical member of Israel. Christ abolished this rite.

Only for Christianity. You are doing a poor job of defending your denominational doctrines. Even by Sola Scriptura standards.

[brightfame52]

Some people say that before Cornelius became a Christian, he was a devout man and he feared God. They also say that God was pleased with prayers before he became a Christian. They would say that this disproves the total depravity of man. What do you think about this? Is Cornelius really a non-Christian in Acts 10:1-4? If he was a non-Christian, does the fact that he feared God disprove the total depravity of man?

Acts 10:1-4 states:

This story about Cornelius proves regeneration or quickening before the Gospel is received. In other words, to believe the Gospel, one must be quickened first, given Spiritual life. Because the natural receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God 1 Cor 2:14

[footwasher]

This story about Cornelius proves regeneration or quickening before the Gospel is received. In other words, to believe the Gospel, one must be quickened first, given Spiritual life. Because the natural receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God 1 Cor 2:14

Scripture tells us God approaches EVERYBODY, in the hope they will ALL turn to Him, seeking Him, to find Him, because we are ALL His children. He shows them their life is futile, harming each other while scrabbling for the riches of the world, and still only gathering treasure that perishes.

Acts 17:26From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ ^b As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’

We can see this in Jacob's family. They were selfish and direction-less. God gave Joseph a dream which resulted in their travelling to Egypt, where their condition as nomads was magnified. With one difference: in Egypt, they were at the bottom of the food chain and suffered the most. Their eyes were opened and they called out to God for deliverance. I'm sure this happens to everyone. We expect to survive life, and God reveals the harm we do to each other in the world system, and the poor returns achievable while doing so. The nobler-minded turn to God. Others love the darkness, and try to exploit the system, get room in Pharoah's palace...

[kiwimac]

The doctrines of Calvin are non-biblical and heretical. Simply put he was wrong.

[brightfame52]

Scripture tells us God approaches EVERYBODY, in the hope they will ALL turn to Him, seeking Him, to find Him, because we are ALL His children. He shows them their life is futile, harming each other while scrabbling for the riches of the world, and still only gathering treasure that perishes.

Acts 17:26From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ ^b As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’

We can see this in Jacob's family. They were selfish and direction-less. God gave Joseph a dream which resulted in their travelling to Egypt, where their condition as nomads was magnified. With one difference: in Egypt, they were at the bottom of the food chain and suffered the most. Their eyes were opened and they called out to God for deliverance. I'm sure this happens to everyone. We expect to survive life, and God reveals the harm we do to each other in the world system, and the poor returns achievable while doing so. The nobler-minded turn to God. Others love the darkness, and try to exploit the system, get room in Pharoah's palace...

God has a Elect People.

[footwasher]

God has a Elect People.

That's right. Paul says:

Romans 9:13Just as it is written, “JACOB I

LOVED, BUT ESAU IHATED”

Esau is the first born, the Jewish people, Jacob, the second born, the Church. The first was made a vessel of dishonour and cut off from God's People, the second was made a vessel of honour, and became a blessing to the world.

[NorrinRadd]

The total depravity of man consists of the following: 1. Human beings are sinful and sin has affected every part of their lives and 2. A person will not seek God unless God first draws him.

I would phrase "2" as "God is always the initiator in relationships." IOW, something closer to "Prevenient Grace" than "Irresistible Grace."

[brightfame52]

That's right. Paul says:

Romans 9:13Just as it is written, “JACOB I

LOVED, BUT ESAU IHATED”

Esau is the first born, the Jewish people, Jacob, the second born, the Church. The first was made a vessel of dishonour and cut off from God's People, the second was made a vessel of honour, and became a blessing to the world.

I can see that. Just as in the allegory, ishmael represents the Isreal Abraham's seed according to the flesh and Isaac represents Abraham's seed according to the Spirit Isreal, the Church the Body of Christ.

[Dave L]

I would phrase "2" as "God is always the initiator in relationships." IOW, something closer to "Prevenient Grace" than "Irresistible Grace."

If by a miracle God would turn a dog into a cat, the cat would think and act like a cat. And o it is with salvation by grace. He turns unbelievers into believers. Paul says we are a new creation. So we do by nature all that saved people naturally do. Prevenient grace would have people act like Christians even though they remain unchanged in the heart.

[footwasher]

If by a miracle God would turn a dog into a cat, the cat would think and act like a cat. And o it is with salvation by grace. He turns unbelievers into believers. Paul says we are a new creation. So we do by nature all that saved people naturally do. Prevenient grace would have people act like Christians even though they remain unchanged in the heart.

God acts first by revealing how we are oppressed by the world, doing unpleasant deeds while scrambling for assets which rust and perish. He promises another Way, which results in treasure that never perishes. If we believe, He will prepare us to receive this life.

[Dave L]

God acts first by revealing how we are oppressed by the world, doing unpleasant deeds while scrambling for assets which rust and perish. He promises another Way, which results in treasure that never perishes. If we believe, He will prepare us to receive this life.

We cannot believe in and of ourselves. It takes a miracle new birth before we can believe in any true sense. “And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.” Deuteronomy 30:6 (KJV 1900)

[footwasher]

We cannot believe in and of ourselves. It takes a miracle new birth before we can believe in any true sense. “And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.” Deuteronomy 30:6 (KJV 1900)

This is the sequence.

Men suffer in the world system.

They do not know what is happening.

God teaches them they are hurting each other in the struggle to grab resources and even then these are assets that will rust and perish.

Men cry out to be saved from the world system. They admit it is repulsive. God is happy to be their God. But not of the people who love the darkness, want to remain in the world system, who even want to exploit, it by trying to get room in Pharoah's palaces, travel on the broad road.

God tells them about an alternative. They will pick up crosses and He will raise them up. The nations will see this and be drawn to God, who can save even when they leave selfish lives lived to save themselves. Believers will gain treasure which does not perish. However, believers need to trust God, because if they don't, they won't pick up crosses.

Believers claim they trust God. God tells them He will test their claims. However He gives them proof He can save. The Holy Spirit creates dangerous situations, and then rescues them. This builds up the trust of the believers, IF they USE this encouragement.

They will then meta-noia, have a different spirit, will be new people, born again people, people who trust and obey God.

We see this happened in the cases of Abraham, Caleb and Jesus. They learner obedience from being exposed to danger and then witnessing the great works of God in rescuing.

Numbers 14:24But because My servant Caleb has a different spirit and has followed Me wholeheartedly, I will bring him into the land he has entered, and his descendants will inherit it.

However, even though Israel drank from the Rock, being rescued from great dangers, they forgot God's great works:


Psalms 106:21They forgot God their Savior,
Who had done great things in Egypt,
22Wonders in the land of Ham
And awesome things by the Red Sea.


They wanted to return to Egypt.

So God said they would never enter His Way, which was better than the world.

This is because they tasted, and wasted the nourishment of the ground, by not bearing fruit. So are fit only to be cut down and thrown into the fire meant for unfruitful plants.

Heb 6:4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age— 6and then have fallen away—to be restored to repentance, because they themselves are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to open shame.


Luke 13:7"And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?'


Jesus had saved and healed for three years, and Israel, like in the wilderness, had not believed. Scripture says their experiences were written for our benefit, so that we should not be like them, who because of unbelief, could not enter Rest.

1 Cor 10:1For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3and all ate the same spiritual food; 4and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.

6Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved. 7Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, “THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND STOOD UP TO PLAY.”


Romans 15:4For all the things that were written before were written for our instruction, so that through patient endurance and encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.


If we promise to build the tower, overcome the approaching army, to enter Rest, live the Way of eternal living, we must build up our faith. Buy oil for our lamps, wedding garments for the feast, milk and honey, without money. We should not make claims and fail, because people who see will ridicule us, saying "So and so claimed he would build the tower and failed!" We must ask for more time, buy some more oil for our lamps, more bread from heaven, everyday, so our faith is properly built up.

Summary
We are born again only if we drink from the goodness of God manifested in the work of the Holy Spirit and bear fruit:

Heb 5:For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

Luke 13:7“And he said to the vineyard-keeper, ‘Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?’

Numbers 14:22“Surely all the men who have seen My glory and My signs which I performed in Egypt and in the wilderness, yet have put Me to the test these ten times and have not listened to My voice, 23shall by no means see the land which I swore to their fathers, nor shall any of those who spurned Me see it. 24“But My servant Caleb, because he has had a different spirit and has followed Me fully, I will bring into the land which he entered, and his descendants shall take possession of it.

John 3:3Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

[NorrinRadd]

You need to understand this in light of faith/faithfulness is a fruit of the Holy Spirit you must already have before you can truly believe. “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” Galatians 5:22 (KJV 1900).

Yes, we need to understand things in those terms if our goal is align with Calvinism.

OTOH, you may need to understand that your view is bass-ackwards.

Gal. 3:2 shows that we "receive the Spirit" by "hearing with faith" (NAS95, ESV2011) or by "believing what you heard" (NET, NIV2011, ISV). And the next verse shows that this is not some Pentecostal "second blessing," it is how we "begin." So hearing the word comes first, then believing / having faith, then receiving the Spirit.

Then the "fruit" in ch. 5 results.

[Dave L]

This is the sequence.

Men suffer in the world system.

They do not know what is happening.

God teaches them they are hurting each other in the struggle to grab resources and even then these are assets that will rust and perish.

Men cry out to be saved from the world system. They admit it is repulsive. God is happy to be their God. But not of the people who love the darkness, want to remain in the world system, who even want to exploit, it by trying to get room in Pharoah's palaces, travel on the broad road.

God tells them about an alternative. They will pick up crosses and He will raise them up. The nations will see this and be drawn to God, who can save even when they leave selfish lives lived to save themselves. Believers will gain treasure which does not perish. However, believers need to trust God, because if they don't, they won't pick up crosses.

Believers claim they trust God. God tells them He will test their claims. However He gives them proof He can save. The Holy Spirit creates dangerous situations, and then rescues them. This builds up the trust of the believers, IF they USE this encouragement.

They will then meta-noia, have a different spirit, will be new people, born again people, people who trust and obey God.

We see this happened in the cases of Abraham, Caleb and Jesus. They learner obedience from being exposed to danger and then witnessing the great works of God in rescuing.

Numbers 14:24But because My servant Caleb has a different spirit and has followed Me wholeheartedly, I will bring him into the land he has entered, and his descendants will inherit it.

However, even though Israel drank from the Rock, being rescued from great dangers, they forgot God's great works:


Psalms 106:21They forgot God their Savior,
Who had done great things in Egypt,
22Wonders in the land of Ham
And awesome things by the Red Sea.


They wanted to return to Egypt.

So God said they would never enter His Way, which was better than the world.

This is because they tasted, and wasted the nourishment of the ground, by not bearing fruit. So are fit only to be cut down and thrown into the fire meant for unfruitful plants.

Heb 6:4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age— 6and then have fallen away—to be restored to repentance, because they themselves are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to open shame.


Luke 13:7"And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?'


Jesus had saved and healed for three years, and Israel, like in the wilderness, had not believed. Scripture says their experiences were written for our benefit, so that we should not be like them, who because of unbelief, could not enter Rest.

1 Cor 10:1For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3and all ate the same spiritual food; 4and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. 5Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.

6Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved. 7Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, “THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND STOOD UP TO PLAY.”


Romans 15:4For all the things that were written before were written for our instruction, so that through patient endurance and encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.


If we promise to build the tower, overcome the approaching army, to enter Rest, live the Way of eternal living, we must build up our faith. Buy oil for our lamps, wedding garments for the feast, milk and honey, without money. We should not make claims and fail, because people who see will ridicule us, saying "So and so claimed he would build the tower and failed!" We must ask for more time, buy some more oil for our lamps, more bread from heaven, everyday, so our faith is properly built up.

Summary
We are born again only if we drink from the goodness of God manifested in the work of the Holy Spirit and bear fruit:

Heb 5:For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

Luke 13:7“And he said to the vineyard-keeper, ‘Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?’

Numbers 14:22“Surely all the men who have seen My glory and My signs which I performed in Egypt and in the wilderness, yet have put Me to the test these ten times and have not listened to My voice, 23shall by no means see the land which I swore to their fathers, nor shall any of those who spurned Me see it. 24“But My servant Caleb, because he has had a different spirit and has followed Me fully, I will bring into the land which he entered, and his descendants shall take possession of it.

John 3:3Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

This does not square with Jesus. “And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.” John 3:19 (KJV 1900)

[brightfame52]

Yes, we need to understand things in those terms if our goal is align with Calvinism.

OTOH, you may need to understand that your view is bass-ackwards.

Gal. 3:2 shows that we "receive the Spirit" by "hearing with faith" (NAS95, ESV2011) or by "believing what you heard" (NET, NIV2011, ISV). And the next verse shows that this is not some Pentecostal "second blessing," it is how we "begin." So hearing the word comes first, then believing / having faith, then receiving the Spirit.

Then the "fruit" in ch. 5 results.

But how can one hear the word spiritually without already being born of the Spirit ? Faith is the fruit of the Spirit Gal 5 22