Question for church-goin Christians...

[footwasher]

Yeah, the Mormons claim that, too.

You mean when I asked for a fish He gave me a snake?

Tsk, tsk, CP, I had expected better from you...

[Cow Poke]

Tsk, tsk, CP,

Please tell me you don't actually talk like that in real life.

[One Bad Pig]

Based on new archaeological findings, advances have been made in interpretation. The theological world is excited about this view:

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post159599


2 Corinthians 5:21For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, so that we could be made right with God through Christ.

http://ntwrightpage.com/Wright_Becom...hteousness.pdf

Quote
Third, this reading of 5:21 has tied it in quite tightly, I think, to the whole argument of chaps. 3-5. This suggests to me that, although of course the first half of chap. 6 grows organically out of just this conclusion, it is misleading to treat 5:19 as though it were the conclusion of the long preceding argument and 5:20 as though it were the start of the new one. When it is read in the way I have suggested, 5:20-21 forms the natural climax to the entire argument of the preceding three chapters, with 6:1 being the point where Paul turns to address a specific appeal to the Corinthians. They have, after all, already been reconciled to God (5:20); 15 now they need to be urged not to receive this grace in vain (6:1). Moreover, they now have a significant new motive to heed this appeal: the one who speaks is not simply an odd, shabby, battle-scarred jailbird, but one who, however surprisingly, is a revelation in person of the covenant faithfulness of God.


Do you know what is meant by the term " covenantal faithfulness of God"?

What you have typed here does not appear to relate back to what I said in post #244. Your first link says nothing about new archaeological evidence, and your second link doesn't work.

[footwasher]

http://www.google.co.in/search?q=2+C...Lc_d8AWY5YHwDA

Try the above indirect link.

What you have typed here does not appear to relate back to what I said in post #244. Your first link says nothing about new archaeological evidence, and your second link doesn't work.

[One Bad Pig]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhrkB_55qaY

Now that I've had a chance to watch this, NT Wright is not saying what you think he's saying. He's not saying that satan isn't real; he's saying that people blame satan for all sorts of things that are more appropriately blamed on the existence of evil.

Yeah, everybody and his uncle can show that chief eisegete a thing or two:

http://www.premierchristianradio.com...e-Unbelievable

Let's just bury our head in the sand and the new medicine will just go away.

About 23:00, NT Wright unequivocally AFFIRMS that satan is a real creature, and that the Jews of the OT believed that as well.

He also believes that people who are fixated on hell and satan need to get a life; there are far more important things to discuss.

If you're going to invoke NT Wright in support of your view, it helps if he actually does.

[One Bad Pig]

http://www.google.co.in/search?q=2+C...Lc_d8AWY5YHwDA

Try the above indirect link.

Thanks, that worked. However, it goes back (at best) to a Lutheran interpretation of Augustine. As much as I respect the work of N. T. Wright, there is no interaction with the East in this essay. NT Wright disagrees with what 19th-20th century German critical exegetes thought. Good for him!

[Truthseeker]

I am thinking of unsubscribing. Are we not wasting too much time on footwasher?

[Cow Poke]

I am thinking of unsubscribing. Are we not wasting too much time on footwasher?

OBP is doing fine!

[footwasher]

Thanks, that worked. However, it goes back (at best) to a Lutheran interpretation of Augustine. As much as I respect the work of N. T. Wright, there is no interaction with the East in this essay. NT Wright disagrees with what 19th-20th century German critical exegetes thought. Good for him!

Okay, the problem with videos are they require time to search through, serially accessed, in contrast with text that can be randomly accessed. Give me some time to work on that, when I will be able to show among other things that scholars extract the idea that Satan is actually a personification of the temptations, the desires of the flesh, that are part of every person.

In the link that worked, several discussions are on, and the views that are being reached is that

Christ is a sin offering
Christ has been made sin

because of the sin offering Paul has been made an ambassador/representative of Christ
because of the sin offering, all believers have been made ambassadors of Christ

I have gone a little beyond these views.

This text and parallels can be used to show that:

Christ was given the same body and was tempted by the same desires of the flesh as every person so that he could help those he came to save

Christ destroyed the desires of the flesh through the Holy Spirit

His sacrifice was an acceptable sacrifice of an unblemished animal

Through his sacrifice new mankind is released from the curse of temptation, desires of the flesh, deeds of the body, through the giving of the Holy Spirit

As first fruit, Christ is the first to receive the benefits of the sacrifice. To all who die to themselves and submit to the will of God, these are the benefits:

Giving of the Holy Spirit.
Resurrection of the dead spirit by the Holy Spirit towards being seated in heaven with the new mankind, serving as priest in the heavenly sanctum.
Resurrection of the dead body by putting to death the deeds of the body through the Holy Spirit towards living the eternal type of life, the life that results in heavenly treasure, the life that shares in the new mankind's work of being a blessing to the world through speaking God's words doing God's deeds and finally being poured out as a drink offering, sacrificed as an unblemished animal towards blessing the world.

[footwasher]

I am thinking of unsubscribing. Are we not wasting too much time on footwasher?

If you can contribute with Scripture discussion, please don't leave. We need posts for and against the views proposed.

I will be posting Scriptural views in a scriptural fashion:


2 Timothy 2:25with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition,



Thanks for your patience.

Sidenote
Great, now I'm going into a meta discussion, discussing how to do the discussion, telling people how to discuss, even giving them content!

[Christianbookworm]

Except it seems that many here do not think you are exegeting properly washer of feet.

[One Bad Pig]

Okay, the problem with videos are they require time to search through, serially accessed, in contrast with text that can be randomly accessed. Give me some time to work on that, when I will be able to show among other things that scholars extract the idea that Satan is actually a personification of the temptations, the desires of the flesh, that are part of every person.

In the link that worked, several discussions are on, and the views that are being reached is that

Christ is a sin offering
Christ has been made sin

because of the sin offering Paul has been made an ambassador/representative of Christ
because of the sin offering, all believers have been made ambassadors of Christ

I have gone a little beyond these views.

This text and parallels can be used to show that:

Christ was given the same body and was tempted by the same desires of the flesh as every person so that he could help those he came to save

Christ destroyed the desires of the flesh through the Holy Spirit

His sacrifice was an acceptable sacrifice of an unblemished animal

Through his sacrifice new mankind is released from the curse of temptation, desires of the flesh, deeds of the body, through the giving of the Holy Spirit

As first fruit, Christ is the first to receive the benefits of the sacrifice. To all who die to themselves and submit to the will of God, these are the benefits:

Giving of the Holy Spirit.
Resurrection of the dead spirit by the Holy Spirit towards being seated in heaven with the new mankind, serving as priest in the heavenly sanctum.
Resurrection of the dead body by putting to death the deeds of the body through the Holy Spirit towards living the eternal type of life, the life that results in heavenly treasure, the life that shares in the new mankind's work of being a blessing to the world through speaking God's words doing God's deeds and finally being poured out as a drink offering, sacrificed as an unblemished animal towards blessing the world.

I can see that you go rather beyond others' views. However, we are manifestly not released from the curse of temptation, desires of the flesh, [and] deeds of the body through the giving of the Holy Spirit. temptation - Luke 8:13, 1 Cor 10:13, 1 Tim 6:9, James 1:12 (not to mention the Lord's Prayer)

desires of the flesh - Rom 6:19, 7:18-25, 2 Cor 7:1, Gal. 5:17, 1 Pet 2:11 ...

I would dearly love to no longer have to battle the desires of the flesh, but pretending they no longer exist for Christians is naive at best.

[footwasher]

I can see that you go rather beyond others' views. However, we are manifestly not released from the curse of temptation, desires of the flesh, [and] deeds of the body through the giving of the Holy Spirit. temptation - Luke 8:13, 1 Cor 10:13, 1 Tim 6:9, James 1:12 (not to mention the Lord's Prayer)

desires of the flesh - Rom 6:19, 7:18-25, 2 Cor 7:1, Gal. 5:17, 1 Pet 2:11 ...

I would dearly love to no longer have to battle the desires of the flesh, but pretending they no longer exist for Christians is naive at best.

Luke 8:13Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root.

This indicates that a believer can choose to be in either of two states.

1 Corinthians 10:13No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear.

Matthew 6:13do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.'

Israel was stubborn and when they sent spies, God arranged to show them fearful giants. Those below twenty were shown a fearful population that had no spirit for battle. Therefore we should pray that God does not test us like He tested a disbelieving Israel, and indeed He does not, not beyond what we can bear, allowing us to step towards sanctification by opening doors, making straight our paths.

1 Timothy 6:9Those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction.

Good advice to follow.

James 1:12Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised.

Shows sanctification is possible.

Similarly, these verses actually show that the desires of the flesh CAN be overcome through the Spirit:

Rom 6:19I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.

Romans 7:18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

2 Cor 7:1Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Gal. 5:16But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. 17For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. 19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

25If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. 26Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.

1 Pet 2:11Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts which wage war against the soul. 12Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.

None of the verses exclude the possibility of sanctification. In fact, by encouraging putting to death the desires of the body, the writer indicates it is possible.

[One Bad Pig]

Luke 8:13Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root.

This indicates that a believer can choose to be in either of two states.

1 Corinthians 10:13No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear.

Matthew 6:13do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.'

Israel was stubborn and when they sent spies, God arranged to show them fearful giants. Those below twenty were shown a fearful population that had no spirit for battle. Therefore we should pray that God does not test us like He tested a disbelieving Israel, and indeed He does not, not beyond what we can bear, allowing us to step towards sanctification by opening doors, making straight our paths.

1 Timothy 6:9Those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction.

Good advice to follow.

James 1:12Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised.

Shows sanctification is possible.

Similarly, these verses actually show that the desires of the flesh CAN be overcome through the Spirit:

Rom 6:19I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.

Romans 7:18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

2 Cor 7:1Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Gal. 5:16But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. 17For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. 19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

25If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. 26Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.

1 Pet 2:11Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts which wage war against the soul. 12Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.

None of the verses exclude the possibility of sanctification. In fact, by encouraging putting to death the desires of the body, the writer indicates it is possible.

I agree that the desires of the flesh can be overcome with the help of the Spirit. However, it is a life-long battle.

There once was a desert ascetic well-known for his sanctity - in fact, such was his holiness that God granted him the power through the Spirit to work healings. Yet even he fell prey to temptation, raped a virgin who had come to him for healing, and killed her to hide the deed.

He subsequently repented, but it took decades of fasting and unceasing prayer to regain his former level of sanctity.

[Cow Poke]

I agree that the desires of the flesh can be overcome with the help of the Spirit. However, it is a life-long battle.

There once was a desert ascetic well-known for his sanctity - in fact, such was his holiness that God granted him the power through the Spirit to work healings. Yet even he fell prey to temptation, raped a virgin who had come to him for healing, and killed her to hide the deed.

He subsequently repented, but it took decades of fasting and unceasing prayer to regain his former level of sanctity.

I love it that God is a God of Second Chances! (and often more)