Question for church-goin Christians...

[Cow Poke]

Don't give up so fast. I can repeat the question even more slowly...

Yeah, insolence always helps communication.

[One Bad Pig]

Whether it be a pharisee, the pope, or a hired shepherd, religious men love to bind heavy burdens and lay them onto the shoulders of other men, like a pack-mule. These burdens are unbearable because they go beyond The Scriptures. And when you say "Well, I'm free of that burden in Christ" the mule-drivers/burden-binders become vexed and lash out with angry, personal diatribes and unleash flurries of bombastic rhetoric.

For the sarcastically impaired the following is said in jest

Unlike you, who are the veritable sweet voice of reason.

Source: 1 Peter 5:4-6

⁵ Likewise you younger people, submit yourselves to your elders. Yes, all of you be submissive to one another, and be clothed with humility, for “God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble.” ⁶ Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time.

© Copyright Original Source

I'm not seeing a whole lotta humility in your stance. I think you just want to have your own way.

[footwasher]

Counter-observation: The only being who said something along the lines of "Did God really say...?" is Satan.

Counter-counter-observation: The only being who said something along the lines of "Did God really say...?" was the serpent.

The same serpent that was nailed to a tree for the sinning Israelites to look at as an example to follow and live.

Attributes are often personified. Some commenters have noted that the serpent represents the temptations that Biblical characters are subjected to on receiving great blessings: Adam, Israel, Christ, all having God’s patronage. Only Christ refuses to take God for granted.

Satan per se is not God’s opposite: he serves God. He is a tempter, but he is God’s servant, carrying out the testing of God’s children.

No. The situation is in no way analogous to your (mis)citations from scripture.

I mean did he resist the Holy Spirit’s tug not to travel to a metaphorical Macedonia?

Undoubtedly. People can more easily ignore what is unclear.

I mean was the conclusion he arrived at a positive view of asceticism? The jury is out, now, as always, on that issue. Case to point, views about John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila.

Being a good Protestant, I'm sure he wasn't teaching asceticism. However, asceticism is indubitably NOT wrong.

I mean asceticism as a lifestyle is wrong. Jesus said he played the dirge and no one mourned, played a happy tune and no one danced. Paul said he had learned to be content with plenty as well as lack. Asceticism can’t be used as a method, an argument, for maturity, growth.

I find it exceedingly presumptuous of you that you think missionaries to NK might not be asking for God's leading.

This is an interesting issue , but I used NK missionaries as a hypothethical example: we don’t know in their particular case how they conducted their ministry. It’s possible God did tell them to risk their lives by entering NK and hold a rally in a public forum and invite arrest, like Gandhi, maybe. I can give you an account of the bravery and the integrity that was a hallmark of the outreach to the Gentiles and was in that fashion and recorded in Scripture, how God told his servants about the suffering facing them and why they should not shrink back. Bravery and integrity that is missing in some of the work done today leading to the name of God being put to shame because of the deception and dishonesty involved. Let's not debate that here, however, as it will distract and detract from the topic at hand.

Then your pastor should stop playing the hypocrite and get a job.

He is in the same state of flux that ordinary people find themselves in when growing to maturity in the Word. Radical teachings are communicated there and they must be studiied, costs counted, terms and options explored and weighed. I think you can make all these considerations and still not be called a hypocrite, especially when you are young and still learning. It helps that he is gifted with a quick mind approaching brilliance. He is not always on the same page as I, and jokes about the ribbing we give each other in Heaven when both of us are shown up!.

I'm fairly certain those verses don't mean what you think they mean. Or was Paul going against Christ's commandment when he talked of overseers (literally, "bishops") (Phil. 1:1, 1 Tim 3:1 ff, Titus 1:7 ff)?

I have already stated that overseers were administrators (or powerful moderators even!).

As long as everyone agrees with your particular interpretation of the scriptures consulted, sure. Of course, that hasn't happened once since the dawn of sola scriptura.

Please read about the pervasiveness of LTG in all denominations, making inroads today like Charismaticism made inroads in diverse denominations before, but more quietly.

John 13. Is there some reason you think that leaders should NOT serve in all humility?

John 13 must be studied in conjunction with John 15, which expands on the previous passages, and talks about pruning, sanctification, because justification has already happened, as evinced by verse 3“You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.

Justification has happened and now sanctification must take place, and it must be initiated in converts by the pruning carried out by servants, refining by slaves, both of which are painful and detailed processes, which the disciples, like their master, must not shrink from. Washing between toes as carefully as trimming between fruit.

As a test, can you find a single instance of the word or direct description of humility in John 13. However, washing with the word, laying down of life, jump out all over the place.

And in John 15, washing with the word is the hero.

John 15: 18“If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. 19“If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.20“Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A slave is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also. 21“But all these things they will do to you for My name’s sake, because they do not know the One who sent Me. 22“If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23“He who hates Me hates My Father also. 24“If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would not have sin; but now they have both seen and hated Me and My Father as well. 25“But they have done this to fulfill the word that is written in their Law, ‘THEY HATED ME WITHOUT A CAUSE.’

[One Bad Pig]

Counter-counter-observation: The only being who said something along the lines of "Did God really say...?" was the serpent.

The same serpent that was nailed to a tree for the sinning Israelites to look at as an example to follow and live.

Attributes are often personified. Some commenters have noted that the serpent represents the temptations that Biblical characters are subjected to on receiving great blessings: Adam, Israel, Christ, all having God’s patronage. Only Christ refuses to take God for granted.

Satan per se is not God’s opposite: he serves God. He is a tempter, but he is God’s servant, carrying out the testing of God’s children.

[footwasher]

http://www.realdevil.info/2-3.htm

Quote
SIN, SATAN AND THE DEVIL
In the New Testament, the words ‘Satan’ and ‘Devil’ are sometimes used figuratively to describe the natural sinful tendencies within us which we spoke of in the previous section. I emphasize 'sometimes'. For there are many occurences of the words where they simply refer to a person playing an adverserial role. But it is human sin and dysfunction which is our great Satan / adversary, and so it's appropriate that these things at times are going to be described as the great ‘Satan’ or adversary. Our lusts are deceitful (Eph. 4:22), and so the Devil or ‘deceiver’ is an appropriate way of describing them. They are personified, and as such they can be spoken of as ‘the Devil’ - our enemy, a slanderer of the truth. This is what our natural ‘man’ is like - the ‘very Devil’. The connection between the Devil and our evil desires - sin within us - is made explicit in several passages: “Since the children (ourselves) have flesh and blood, he (Jesus) too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death - that is, the Devil” (Heb. 2:14 NIV). The Devil is here described as being responsible for death. But “the wages of sin is death” (Rom. 6:23). Therefore sin and the Devil must be parallel. Similarly James 1:14 says that our evil desires tempt us, leading us to sin and therefore to death; but Heb. 2:14 says that the Devil brings death. The same verse says that Jesus had our nature in order to destroy the Devil. Contrast this with Rom. 8:3: “God ... by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man (that is, in our human nature) ... condemned sin in sinful man ”. This shows that the Devil and the sinful tendencies that are naturally within human nature are effectively the same. It is vitally important to understand that Jesus was tempted just like us. Misunderstanding the doctrine of the Devil means that we cannot correctly appreciate the nature and work of Jesus. It was only because Jesus had our human nature - the ‘Devil’ within him - that we can have the hope of salvation (Heb. 2:14-18; 4:15). By overcoming the desires of his own nature Jesus was able to destroy the Devil on the cross (Heb. 2:14). If the Devil is a personal being, then he should no longer exist. Heb. 9:26 says that Christ appeared “to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself”. Heb. 2:14 matches this with the statement that through his death Christ destroyed the Devil in himself. By His death Jesus in prospect destroyed “the body of sin” (Rom. 6:6), i.e. human nature with its potential to sin in our very bodies.

[One Bad Pig]

http://www.realdevil.info/2-3.htm

Quote
SIN, SATAN AND THE DEVIL
In the New Testament, the words ‘Satan’ and ‘Devil’ are sometimes used figuratively to describe the natural sinful tendencies within us which we spoke of in the previous section. I emphasize 'sometimes'. For there are many occurences of the words where they simply refer to a person playing an adverserial role. But it is human sin and dysfunction which is our great Satan / adversary, and so it's appropriate that these things at times are going to be described as the great ‘Satan’ or adversary. Our lusts are deceitful (Eph. 4:22), and so the Devil or ‘deceiver’ is an appropriate way of describing them. They are personified, and as such they can be spoken of as ‘the Devil’ - our enemy, a slanderer of the truth. This is what our natural ‘man’ is like - the ‘very Devil’. The connection between the Devil and our evil desires - sin within us - is made explicit in several passages: “Since the children (ourselves) have flesh and blood, he (Jesus) too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death - that is, the Devil” (Heb. 2:14 NIV). The Devil is here described as being responsible for death. But “the wages of sin is death” (Rom. 6:23). Therefore sin and the Devil must be parallel. Similarly James 1:14 says that our evil desires tempt us, leading us to sin and therefore to death; but Heb. 2:14 says that the Devil brings death. The same verse says that Jesus had our nature in order to destroy the Devil. Contrast this with Rom. 8:3: “God ... by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man (that is, in our human nature) ... condemned sin in sinful man ”. This shows that the Devil and the sinful tendencies that are naturally within human nature are effectively the same. It is vitally important to understand that Jesus was tempted just like us. Misunderstanding the doctrine of the Devil means that we cannot correctly appreciate the nature and work of Jesus. It was only because Jesus had our human nature - the ‘Devil’ within him - that we can have the hope of salvation (Heb. 2:14-18; 4:15). By overcoming the desires of his own nature Jesus was able to destroy the Devil on the cross (Heb. 2:14). If the Devil is a personal being, then he should no longer exist. Heb. 9:26 says that Christ appeared “to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself”. Heb. 2:14 matches this with the statement that through his death Christ destroyed the Devil in himself. By His death Jesus in prospect destroyed “the body of sin” (Rom. 6:6), i.e. human nature with its potential to sin in our very bodies.

Yes, this is just as wacky. I'm not interested in discussing manifest eisegesis.

[Cow Poke]

Yes, this is just as wacky. I'm not interested in discussing manifest eisegesis.

Would you let him near your hooves with a basin of hot water and a towel?

[Steven]

I'm not seeing a whole lotta humility in your stance. I think you just want to have your own way.

Maybe I can go down to the local mega-church coffee shop/gift store/movie theater and buy myself a gild-leafed, LED illuminated Humility Badge (with a complimentary velveteen scratch case) to wear upon my person.

WWJD? Would He choose red, green or blue?
The white one looks more spiritual, and comes with a surrender flag accessory...

[One Bad Pig]

Maybe I can go down to the local mega-church coffee shop/gift store/movie theater and buy myself a gild-leafed, LED illuminated Humility Badge (with a complimentary velveteen scratch case) to wear upon my person.

WWJD? Would He choose red, green or blue?
The white one looks more spiritual, and comes with a surrender flag accessory...

You should, because that's the only alternative.

[footwasher]

Maybe I can go down to the local mega-church coffee shop/gift store/movie theater and buy myself a gild-leafed, LED illuminated Humility Badge (with a complimentary velveteen scratch case) to wear upon my person.

WWJD? Would He choose red, green or blue?
The white one looks more spiritual, and comes with a surrender flag accessory...

I don't think it'll go well with the wild eyed prophet T-shirt.

And Jesus was as wild eyed as they came.

Na, humility isn't the theme at our party.

Wimmen not allowed either.Tears and hissy fits ruling out THAT ever happening. I remember positing the scene of a battlefield being the overarching theme in the NT in the Old Site, and why God wouldn't be pleased if His holy ones shrank away.

Didn't go down well.

[footwasher]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhrkB_55qaY

Yes, this is just as wacky. I'm not interested in discussing manifest eisegesis.

Yeah, everybody and his uncle can show that chief eisegete a thing or two:

http://www.premierchristianradio.com...e-Unbelievable

Let's just bury our head in the sand and the new medicine will just go away.

[Cow Poke]

And Jesus was as wild eyed as they came.

Sounds like, with regards to Lewis's trilemma, you'd choose 'lunatic'?

[footwasher]

Matthew 11:7As these men were going away, Jesus began to speak to the crowds about John, “What did you go out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken by the wind? 8“But what did you go out to see? A man dressed in soft clothing? Those who wear soft clothing are in kings’ palaces! 9“But what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and one who is more than a prophet.

10“This is the one about whom it is written,
************‘BEHOLD, I SEND MY MESSENGER AHEAD OF YOU,
************WHO WILL PREPARE YOUR WAY BEFORE YOU.’

11“Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist! Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12“From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and violent men take it by force. 13“For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John. 14“And if you are willing to accept it, John himself is Elijah who was to come. 15“He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

******16“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places, who call out to the other children, 17and say, ‘We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not mourn.’ 18“For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon!’ 19“The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds.”

Sounds like, with regards to Lewis's trilemma, you'd choose 'lunatic'?

If you weren't fashionably challenged, you'd know wild eyed prophets come in various flavors:


Matthew 11:18"For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon!'

Matthew 3:4
John's clothes were made of camel's hair, and he had a leather belt around his waist. His food was locusts and wild honey.

Matthew 9:34
But the Pharisees said, "It is by the prince of demons that he drives out demons."

Matthew 11:17
"'We played the pipe for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not mourn.'

Tim Allen, move over. Here come the real men.

Growf, growf, grief!

Violent men ain't got nothing' on us!

When I was in Iraq working on the Baghdad-Mosul line, one of my drivers of the 100 strong Mack fleet used to ask me to arrange to tighten a bolt that always got loose, using your emoticon. I had to correct him. Get a grip, CP!

[Cow Poke]

If you weren't fashionably challenged, youd know wild eyed prophets come in various flavors:

If you weren't spiritually challenged, you'd know not to look at Jesus through the eyes of the world.

[footwasher]

If you weren't spiritually challenged, you'd know not to look at Jesus through the eyes of the world.

You playing the spiritual card. You who couldn't hold a branding iron as hot as Scripture? Care to get into the Word?