Originally posted by TimelessTheist
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Forum Rules: Here
This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and theists. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining 'Christian' for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions. Additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101.
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Explain to me Martin Luther
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostYou and I appear to have different definitions of "content." One is not typically "content" with what one merely tolerates.
Edit: Ah, I see it now. He simply said he was content with the statement: "there must be a corporal head of the Church upon earth."
However, that does not necessarily mean the Papacy. The fact that he denied the authority of the Pope, and the authority of the Church itself, proves this.Last edited by TimelessTheist; 05-30-2014, 08:54 PM.Better to illuminate than merely to shine, to deliver to others contemplated truths than merely to contemplate.
-Thomas Aquinas
I love to travel, But hate to arrive.
-Hernando Cortez
What is the good of experience if you do not reflect?
-Frederick 2, Holy Roman Emperor
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Originally posted by ChrawnusIt has been my understanding that Luther never wanted to separate from the RCC, only reform it (hence "the Reformation") and that the schism was largely a result of the actions of the opposing side. In other words, blaming Luther for the divisions that followed the reformation seems a bit misguided to me, or at the very least, putting the blame solely on Luther when the RCC leadership practically pushed him and his followers out of the RCC is.Originally posted by Chrawnusmy criticism was directed at the way Sparrow seemed to put the blame on the schism solely on Luther, as if the RCC leadership had nothing to do with it.
The agitation of Luther and the other reformers, and the response of the RCC to their calls for reform, resulted in a schism which has fragmented the Church into thousands of denominations. (Better?)
Nevertheless, there is something inherently schismatic about Protestantism itself: unlike previous schisms, in which AFAIK Montanists were just Montanists and didn't split up into dozens of competing Montanist sects, the Protestant reformation immediately split within itself into several competing factions which have only continued to multiply as time progresses. I think it's the way that it places the locus of doctrinal authority in each individual's reading of the Bible rather than in the tradition of the Church.
Originally posted by ChrawnusWait a second. Are you trying to say that people's misuse and mischaracterization of Luthers teaching on "sola Scriptura" is somehow to be blamed on Luther? To be sure, "sola Scriptura" has been and is misused in the way you write above, but blaming Luther for it when he never intended it that way and never endorsed such a view seems a bit silly to me.
Originally posted by robrechtI just offered this up because I thought it might interest both Sparrow and you.
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Originally posted by TimelessTheist View PostIt's common sense, if you actually read it. He rejected the authority of the Pope, the authority of the Church, and claimed that Catholic doctrine had "injected human inventions and lies". He rejected pretty much everything the Church actually was.
All I can say is that your militant attitude is leading you to take some of the looniest stances I've ever seen. Do go on though, it is most entertaining.
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Originally posted by TimelessTheist View PostEh, those are both the same things, just different semantics. I mean, it's kind of hard to say that he didn't believe those things at the time, when he, himself, said that he believed that at the time.
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Originally posted by TimelessTheist View PostMaybe he meant "content" with the Pope stating this, and not actually the position itself? Anyway, I'm not sure, I can't seem to find a Latin copy of this paper anywhere, so I don't know how accurate the translation "content" is, however, the rest of the work seems to paint the picture that he's extremely, extremely uncontent with this. Heck, a couple lines later, he straight up says that he has a problem with the Pope declaring himself the authority of the Church. Even later still, he says that he has a problem with the Church declaring itself an authority in general. That seems to deny, both, the legitimacy of the Papacy, 'and' the Church.
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Originally posted by RBerman View Post"Has a problem," present tense. Again, when you see him in Table Talk quotations denying the Pope's authority, you're dealing with Luther's mature position almost twenty years after his excommunication, after wars, exile, attempts on his life, etc. You're not dealing with what he wanted and thought at Wittenberg or even Worms.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by RBerman View PostIf you want to establish what Luther's motives were at the time that he acted, you should read what he carefully wrote at the time that he acted ...אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostIIRC, you are not a Lutheran, but a Calvinist of some sort, correct? As far as I can tell, there is no single, authoitative position of the Lutheran Church about some of these matters, but rather various synods and theologians dispersed over the world and time come up with various interpretations of what exactly the Lutheran church stands for. Is that correct? Perhps an exaggeration?
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Originally posted by RBerman View PostThat sounds correct. When you read Luther's early works (e.g. 1517), what is your own impression of his attitude toward the Pope?אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostI think he thought the pope (and bishops) could and should and would step in and fix things. But I've only read a little bit of Luther and am not sure of this. The Babylonian Captivity of the Church was written not so longer afterward (1520) and he definitely did not think so at that time. Haven't read that since college, 'though, so, again, I'm not sure I'm remembering this so well.
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostSo the evolution in his position, for the most part, seems to have occured very quickly?
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Originally posted by RBerman View PostI'm no expert on when he changed his mind exactly on what issues, though one would imagine that by the end of 1521, the year of his trial and excommunication, his trust in the papacy had probably evaporated. If "four years" is "quickly," then I suppose so. It could have been quicker, but I wouldn't know.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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