Praying to Mary is worshiping Mary

[RBerman]

I think Rberman pointed out a fundamental flaw in your argument. I know he's not Catholic and we've certainly had some disagreements, over Catholicism. But you have taken this to a new level of lunacy foud. At best you have misinterpretation of scripture, and you don't have a single decent source that actually backs the claim up. You're claim is that if Catholics pray to an angel or saint, we are worshipping them. That's not what I was taught, nor what I learned. We do not attribute Omniscience, nor any attribute of God to any saint. When we as a saint or an angel to pray for us it is no different than if we ask a fellow Christian who is here to pray for us. The Saints are just as much alive as we are. But they are present with the Lord. Secondly if any miracle is attributed to a Saint, they cannot do it by their own power, but it is God who does it by using them as a vessel to reveal himself. You may consider it blasphemy, But you should at least try to understand it, before you criticize it.

I don't think it's blasphemy to ask other saints to pray for you. I do wonder two things:

1) Those of you who ask dead saints to pray for you, how often do you ask living saints to pray for you? The Biblical instructions to "pray for each other" seem to assume bi-directional communication, as between two living Christians.

2) Those of you who ask living or dead saints (including Mary) to pray for you, how often do you pray directly to God yourself in comparison?

[foudroyant]

I think Rberman pointed out a fundamental flaw in your argument. I know he's not Catholic and we've certainly had some disagreements, over Catholicism. But you have taken this to a new level of lunacy foud. At best you have misinterpretation of scripture, and you don't have a single decent source that actually backs the claim up. You're claim is that if Catholics pray to an angel or saint, we are worshipping them. That's not what I was taught, nor what I learned. We do not attribute Omniscience, nor any attribute of God to any saint. When we as a saint or an angel to pray for us it is no different than if we ask a fellow Christian who is here to pray for us. The Saints are just as much alive as we are. But they are present with the Lord. Secondly if any miracle is attributed to a Saint, they cannot do it by their own power, but it is God who does it by using them as a vessel to reveal himself. You may consider it blasphemy, But you should at least try to understand it, before you criticize it.

http://www.studylight.org/com/kdo/view.cgi?bk=22&ch=56
Barnes: (Isaiah 56:7) In my house of prayer - In the temple - here called the house of prayer. The language here is all derived from the worship of the Jews, though the meaning evidently is, that under the new dispensation, all nations would be admitted to the privileges of his people, and that the appropriate services of religion which they would offer would be acceptable to God.
http://www.studylight.org/com/bnb/view.cgi?bk=22&ch=56

Again I already addressed the argument about asking a friend to pray for you in the OP (#2).

And also I already addressed the fact that if God gave anyone this ability this would mean that God would have created another God in Post #74.

You haven't presented any refutation of what I have already addressed nor have you presented anything new.

[robrecht]

I don't think it's blasphemy to ask other saints to pray for you. I do wonder two things:

1) Those of you who ask dead saints to pray for you, how often do you ask living saints to pray for you? The Biblical instructions to "pray for each other" seem to assume bi-directional communication, as between two living Christians.

2) Those of you who ask living or dead saints (including Mary) to pray for you, how often do you pray directly to God yourself in comparison?

I think you mean 'God himself' or 'you yourself' instead of 'God yourself'. Personally, I do not really keep track of something like this. And, actually, I do not really think of myself as 'praying to' Mary or other saints (I think of them as resurrected saints, not dead saints) but rather as praying with them, including all the choirs of angels. For me, the saints seem more like an example of a prayerful life and communion with God that I might try to imitate. I think of the whole church as praying together, living, resurrected, near and far. I think of prayer as changing me and my attitude of praise and not as changing God or others, 'though when I ask someone else (someone here on earth) to pray for me, I do see it as an expression of communal faith that changes each of us by sharing this bond of prayerful faith.

[One Bad Pig]

I don't think it's blasphemy to ask other saints to pray for you. I do wonder two things:

1) Those of you who ask dead saints to pray for you, how often do you ask living saints to pray for you? The Biblical instructions to "pray for each other" seem to assume bi-directional communication, as between two living Christians.

While I do occasionally ask living saints to pray for me for something specific, I do not typically ask people whom I do not know personally to pray for me in general; they only have limited time available to pray, after all. I am certain many people whom I do know personally pray for me in general without my having to ask, just as I pray for many others whom I know personally without them asking for it. Prayer to the saints does draw me into a relationship with them somehow, even though there is not explicit two-way communication.

2) Those of you who ask living or dead saints (including Mary) to pray for you, how often do you pray directly to God yourself in comparison?

I don't keep track, but I generally pray directly to God much more often than I ask others to pray for me.

[RBerman]

I think you mean 'God himself' or 'you yourself' instead of 'God yourself'.

What I meant was: If you are in the habit of asking other people to pray to God on your behalf, do you also pray directly to God, on your own behalf?

Personally, I do not really keep track of something like this. And, actually, I do not really think of myself as 'praying to' Mary or other saints (I think of them as resurrected saints, not dead saints) but rather as praying with them, including all the choirs of angels. For me, the saints seem more like an example of a prayerful life and communion with God that I might try to imitate. I think of the whole church as praying together, living, resurrected, near and far. I think of prayer as changing me and my attitude of praise and not as changing God or others, 'though when I ask someone else (someone here on earth) to pray for me, I do see it as an expression of communal faith that changes each of us by sharing this bond of prayerful faith.

Regardless of the terminology, I am still interested in the answers to my two questions.

1) Compared to how often you request prayer from the dead, how often do you request prayer from the living? Is it 50/50, or 10/90, or what?

2) Compared to both of those, how often do you speak directly to God?

[RBerman]

While I do occasionally ask living saints to pray for me for something specific, I do not typically ask people whom I do not know personally to pray for me in general; they only have limited time available to pray, after all. I am certain many people whom I do know personally pray for me in general without my having to ask, just as I pray for many others whom I know personally without them asking for it. Prayer to the saints does draw me into a relationship with them somehow, even though there is not explicit two-way communication.

I wouldn't expect you to ask total strangers to pray for you. I was thinking more of the context of your local church.

I don't keep track, but I generally pray directly to God much more often than I ask others to pray for me.

That is good.

[robrecht]

What I meant was: If you are in the habit of asking other people to pray to God on your behalf, do you also pray directly to God, on your own behalf?

Yes.

Regardless of the terminology, I am still interested in the answers to my two questions.

1) Compared to how often you request prayer from the dead, how often do you request prayer from the living? Is it 50/50, or 10/90, or what?

Already said I don't keep track of this. Wouldn't even hazard a guess. Given my clarifications above, it seems rather meaningless, because I think of all prayer as the whole church praying together with all the angels and saints, living, resurrected, near and far. See what I mean?

2) Compared to both of those, how often do you speak directly to God?

Again, this seems like a false dichotomy to me for the reasons stated above in this post and in the preceding one. Sorry if that is not helpful, but that is how I think of prayer, even as the Spirit praying within me.

[Catholicity]

I don't think it's blasphemy to ask other saints to pray for you. I do wonder two things:

1) Those of you who ask dead saints to pray for you, how often do you ask living saints to pray for you? The Biblical instructions to "pray for each other" seem to assume bi-directional communication, as between two living Christians.

2) Those of you who ask living or dead saints (including Mary) to pray for you, how often do you pray directly to God yourself in comparison?

To answer question one, as often as I feel the need arises, certainly since my pastor is on my facebook, my friends, in laws and so on as well as the mother's groups I am in, I offer daily prayers for them and have asked often for their prayers epsecially lately.

To answer question number two, much much much more. I consider Mary a friend or a help, and a couple of times a day I may find myself saying a Hail Mary, but more often I recite the Lord's Prayer, or another familiar prayer, and often something of my own. Despite where I attend church, Prayer is daily and often.

[Catholicity]

Foudroyant, all you've supplied is you're personal interpretation of scripture. That's it. I'd hardly call that an informed source.

[foudroyant]

From the OP (#3):
The fact that there are passages in the Bible which demonstrate the Lord Jesus is the proper recipient of prayer/worship (which means He is omniscient) is powerful testimony that He is God. Many heretics deny His Deity so Roman Catholics and others who claim Mary can be prayed to (yes, that is worship) really discredit who the Lord Jesus is.
a. William Mounce: The fact that people pray to both God (Mt. 6:9) and Jesus (Acts 1:24) is part of the proof of Jesus' deity (Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old & New Testament Words, Pray, page 531).
b. A.H. Leitch: Christ possesses the attributes of God: omniscience (Acts 1:24) (2:94, deity of Christ, The Zondervan Encyclopedia of the Bible).
c. EDNT: On the one hand God is "in heaven" (Matt 6:9f. par.; 7:11; 11:25) and strictly distinguishable from everything that is of this world. On the other hand, however, he is present (Matt 6:1-18; Rev 1:8) and omniscient (Matt 6:8, 32; Acts 1:24; 15:8) (2:141, theos, G. Schneider).


Just my personal interpretation?
No way.


Based on what Mounce wrote above for those who pray to Mary it teaches:
The fact that Roman Catholics and others pray to God (Mt. 6:9) and Mary is part of the proof that they believe Mary is omniscient (God).

Based on what Leitch (and Schneider) wrote above for those who pray to Mary it teaches:
Mary possesses the attributes of God: omniscience (kardiognwsta).

[RBerman]

Already said I don't keep track of this. Wouldn't even hazard a guess. Given my clarifications above, it seems rather meaningless, because I think of all prayer as the whole church praying together with all the angels and saints, living, resurrected, near and far. See what I mean?

I do not. Honestly, it seems like a cop out to say that it does not matter.

[robrecht]

I do not. Honestly, it seems like a cop out to say that it does not matter.

I did not say exactly that it does not matter, but that such a characterization seems rather meaningless to me, given my understanding of prayer. Should I change my views regarding prayer in order to give you an answer to your question? No, I don't think so. I answered your question as honestly as I could. Your welcome.

[RBerman]

To answer question one, as often as I feel the need arises, certainly since my pastor is on my facebook, my friends, in laws and so on as well as the mother's groups I am in, I offer daily prayers for them and have asked often for their prayers epsecially lately.

So you often ask for prayer from the living, which is good and biblical. You don't specifically address how that compares to the percentage of prayer requests you direct toward deceased saints, but I get the impression that the latter is a minority.

To answer question number two, much much much more. I consider Mary a friend or a help, and a couple of times a day I may find myself saying a Hail Mary, but more often I recite the Lord's Prayer, or another familiar prayer, and often something of my own. Despite where I attend church, Prayer is daily and often.

OK.

[RBerman]

I did not say exactly that it does not matter, but that such a characterization seems rather meaningless to me, given my understanding of prayer. Should I change my views regarding prayer in order to give you an answer to your question? No, I don't think so. I answered your question as honestly as I could. Your welcome.

You may think it is meaningless into which of my three categories your various prayers fall, and you may not be keeping a tally sheet that would permit a precise response, but I do not see how you could actually be incapable of providing a ballpark estimate as Catholicity has done. That is why I said that your answer seems like a cop out.

[One Bad Pig]

Foudroyant, all you've supplied is you're personal interpretation of scripture. That's it. I'd hardly call that an informed source.

Foudroyant is hardly limiting his selective interpretation of sources to scripture. He's misusing a wide variety of sources.