Praying to Mary is worshiping Mary

[tabibito]

We do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us (Romans 8:26, NASB)

"YOU" are not praying - The Holy Spirit is interceding on "you's" behalf - "you" doesn't even know how to pray.

And that is based on your messed up re-write of the sentence.

[foudroyant]

I am praying but without the Holy Spirit interceding for me it is totally ineffective.

All this is an attempt on your part to run away from the fact that Romans 8:26-27 destroys the heretical belief of prayer being rendered unto anyone else but God.
He alone is able to search the totality of all the hearts that are behind all prayers. This is true even concerning silent prayers.


Guzik: The Holy Spirit’s help in intercession is perfect, because He searches the hearts of those whom He helps, and He is able to guide our prayers according to the will of God.
http://www.studylight.org/commentari...cgi?bk=44&ch=8
Can Mary search the hearts in equality with the Holy Spirit and guide the prayers according to the will of God also in equality with the Holy Spirit? No. But saying she can proves once again that Roman Catholics and others, despite the denial to the contrary, have put her on equality with the Holy Spirit as the Heart-Knower of all.
-----
Barnes wrote that God "does not need that those deep emotions should be expressed in words; he does not need the eloquence of language to induce him to hear; but he sees the anxious feelings of the soul, and is ready to aid and to bless."
http://www.studylight.org/commentari...cgi?bk=44&ch=8
Can these deep emotions go unexpressed in words and Mary will still know all of them? No. But saying she can proves once again that Roman Catholics and others, despite the denial to the contrary, have put her on equality with God as the Heart-Knower of all.
-----

This is why I previously wrote this:
"Omniscience is what is required.
Besides God being omniscient let's see your list as to who else falls in this category."

So let's see your list.

[tabibito]

All this is an attempt on your part to run away from the fact that Romans 8:26-27 destroys the heretical belief of prayer being rendered unto anyone else but God.

I have no such belief.

[foudroyant]

Then stop defending this blasphemy.

[tabibito]

I am praying but without the Holy Spirit interceding for me it is totally ineffective.

I am praying but without the Holy Spirit interceding for me it is totally ineffective.

Where in that passage does it say that anyone other than the Holy Spirit is praying? It says we don't even know what to pray for, so the Holy Spirit intercedes.

Here it is again:
Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

What is the background: what are we doing?
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

[foudroyant]

For we do not know how to pray AS WE SHOULD (Romans 8:26, NASB, emphasis mine)

This is my first sentence in Post #844:
"I am praying but without the Holy Spirit interceding for me it is totally ineffective."

[tabibito]

Then stop defending this blasphemy.

I am defending the truth - what you are posting is not in accord with the truth - you're attempting to underscore your charge of blasphemy with misrepresentations of scripture. If faithfully handling the word of truth can't demonstrate that prayer to and adoration of the saints is blasphemy or false teaching, then it wouldn't be blasphemy or false teaching: it would be adiaphora - and no-one would be authorised to speak in condemnation of the practice. No-one would be authorised to require that others engage in the practice.

You will note that no-one answered my earlier question:

Does Rome teach that it is appropriate to address living saints in the same terms that she teaches is proper with regard to resurrected saints?

[tabibito]

For we do not know how to pray AS WE SHOULD (Romans 8:26, NASB, emphasis mine)

This is my first sentence in Post #844:
"I am praying but without the Holy Spirit interceding for me it is totally ineffective."

Yet again, your answer is based not on the text that has been presented. Where does the text say that we are praying?

How can we be praying when we don't know what we should be praying for?

we do not know how to pray is incorrect:

τὸ γὰρ τί προσευξόμεθα καθὸ δεῖ, οὐκ οἴδαμεν
what we might pray (about) as is appropriate, we do not know.

[tabibito]

Learning to accurately handle the word of truth and to rightly divide the scriptures is not a matter of listening to sermons and lectures or examining commentaries, Foudroyant. It is a matter of giving close and careful attention to the text to determine with precision what it is saying.
The process can be made more effective by working out whether a given text answers questions formulated on the basis of the text itself. If the answer is ambiguous, it is a matter of checking other passages (sometimes there are many) addressing the same issue for clarification.

As a matter of demonstration:
Ephesians 5:5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
Does Ephesians 5:5 say that an idolater who is also a fornicator, unclean person (etc) has no inheritance?
or
Does Ephesians 5:5 say that a fornicator, unclean person (etc) is an idolater who has no inheritance?

It is ambiguous - By itself, Ephesians 5:5 doesn't answer the question.

It becomes a matter of searching out other passages that address "idolater" and "idolatry". Once that has been done, the answer is clear and the correct interpretation can be declared without any possibility of contradiction.

[robrecht]

Can Mary search the hearts in equality with the Holy Spirit and guide the prayers according to the will of God also in equality with the Holy Spirit? No. But saying she can proves once again that Roman Catholics and others, despite the denial to the contrary, have put her on equality with the Holy Spirit as the Heart-Knower of all.

Where has anyone said Mary can search the hearts in equality with the Holy Spirit? Has anyone said that or are you just making that up?

Where has anyone said that Mary can guide prayers according to the will of God in equality with the Holy Spirit? Has anyone actually said that or are you just making that up?

[foudroyant]

I am defending the truth - what you are posting is not in accord with the truth - you're attempting to underscore your charge of blasphemy with misrepresentations of scripture.

You are not defending the truth because Roman 8:26-27 refutes what you are trying to defend.

I don't know the official Roman Catholic stance as it pertains to your question. Whenever I tell them not to pray to Mary they almost always respond by saying that it's just like asking a friend (living on earth) to pray for you.
This is not the same.

[foudroyant]

Yet again, your answer is based not on the text that has been presented. Where does the text say that we are praying?

What an idiot.
It talks about when we do pray.

[foudroyant]

Learning to accurately handle the word of truth and to rightly divide the scriptures is not a matter of listening to sermons and lectures or examining commentaries, Foudroyant. It is a matter of giving close and careful attention to the text to determine with precision what it is saying.
The process can be made more effective by working out whether a given text answers questions formulated on the basis of the text itself. If the answer is ambiguous, it is a matter of checking other passages (sometimes there are many) addressing the same issue for clarification.

As a matter of demonstration:
Ephesians 5:5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
Does Ephesians 5:5 say that an idolater who is also a fornicator, unclean person (etc) has no inheritance?
or
Does Ephesians 5:5 say that a fornicator, unclean person (etc) is an idolater who has no inheritance?

It is ambiguous - By itself, Ephesians 5:5 doesn't answer the question.

It becomes a matter of searching out other passages that address "idolater" and "idolatry". Once that has been done, the answer is clear and the correct interpretation can be declared without any possibility of contradiction.

Dude, you are pathetic. You wrest Scripture to your own destruction.
Anyone who engages in those activities is an idolater but an idolater can also engage in other activities.

All prayer is worship but not all worship is prayer. There are other ways to worship God - like fasting.

[foudroyant]

Where has anyone said Mary can search the hearts in equality with the Holy Spirit? Has anyone said that or are you just making that up?

Where has anyone said that Mary can guide prayers according to the will of God in equality with the Holy Spirit? Has anyone actually said that or are you just making that up?

Then there is no need for her intercession since the omniscient Holy Spirit would by definition need no help. The Holy Spirit's intercession is perfect for He fully knows our hearts.
AND
Then there is no need for her to be prayed to since the omniscient God would be the only one who can fully understand the silent prayers of the heart. She and all others are unqualified for that.

[tabibito]

Dude, you are pathetic. You wrest Scripture to your own destruction.
Anyone who engages in those activities is an idolater but an idolater can also engage in other activities.

Had I been presented with that question, I would have stated that the second answer (transgressor=idolater) was correct, and provided scriptural references that demonstrated my answer to be accurate.
You, by contrast, not knowing how to uphold the truth, simply resort to froth mouthed vilification.