Praying to Mary is worshiping Mary

[robrecht]

Let them praise the name of the LORD, For His name alone is exalted; His glory is above earth and heaven. (Psalm 148:13, NASB)

The only one due praise by every person is God. This is because His name ALONE is exalted. By offering praises (yes, this is prayer here) to Mary the RCC and others who pray to her are assigning her a position which God alone possesses.

Completely false. No Catholic who knows the first thing about the teachings of their Church would ever assign to Mary a position that God alone possesses. Ignorant Catholics perhaps. I've only ever heard of one Catholic, no one I've ever met, who supposedly thought that Mary had become a member of the Trinity. You are the only Catholic I've ever 'met' who thinks that the Church assigns to Mary a position that God alone possesses.

[foudroyant]

If she knows all of that, and I have no idea if she does, that would not be omniscience.

καρδιογνώστης is defined differently (See the OP).

[robrecht]

καρδιογνώστης is defined differently (See the OP).

If Mary knows someone's heart because they have communicated this to her, that is not at all the same as God's omniscience. Anyone can know know someone's heart if it is revealed to them by that person, to whatever extent they know and reveal it to them. A wise and discerning person can even have insight into another person's heart, sometimes even more than that person does, if they are observent and reflective. This is not anything remotely like God's omniscence.

[foudroyant]

Telling Mary how I feel without talking but I simply think it that is not the same thing as doing so to another created human being.

[robrecht]

Telling Mary how I feel without talking but I simply think it that is not the same thing as doing so to another created human being.

What of Peter knowing the heart of Ananias, do you think that means he was omniscent?

"Ananias," Peter asked, "why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back part of the proceeds of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, were not the proceeds at your disposal? How is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart?

[foudroyant]

See Post #4 Letter "L" part 2

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...ce%29%E2%80%8F

[robrecht]

See Post #4 Letter "L" part 2

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...ce%29%E2%80%8F

2. If some say that prophets were able to read the hearts of people (cf. 2 Kings 6:12; Acts 5:3-5) we must remember that although they had more insight than others they were never said to be able to know the totality of the hearts of all people. Only God has this knowledge (omniscience).

And you think that the Catholic or Orthodox churches teach that Mary knows the totality of the hearts of all people? Previously, you were talking about your belief that you could communicate to Mary what was in your heart, now you are claiming that she already knew everything in your heart and everyone else's heart without you or others even communicating this to her? This is what you were taught? You read this somewhere? And now you think you know exactly what the proper limits of the beatific vision in heaven are? What are you smoking?

[foudroyant]

And you think that the Catholic or Orthodox churches teach that Mary knows the totality of the hearts of all people?

Yes.
They won't admit it but the fact that they prayer to her and expect her to know all prayers by all people simultaneously with many of them done in silence proves that they do.

She doesn't know what is in people's hearts. When praying to her I believed that she did. Now I know better.

In prayer to God David said this:
Search me, O God, and know my heart; Try me and know my anxious thoughts (Psalm 139:23, NASB).

This is impossible for anyone but God can do. Since no other but God can do this then no other but God ought to be prayed to.

[robrecht]

Yes.
They won't admit it but the fact that they prayer to her and expect her to know all prayers by all people simultaneously with many of them done in silence proves that they do.

By claiming to know what Catholics teach and believe, but supposedly do not admit to teaching or believing, you assume the very knowledge of their hearts that you claim to know that Mary and the saints cannot have.

She doesn't know what is in people's hearts. When praying to her I believed that she did. Now I know better.

Just because you were ignorant of your own church's teaching when you were growing up, does not mean that others are as ignorant as you were. You claim to now know what the angels and saints cannot know. How can you know what are the limits of the knowledge of the angels and saints in heaven?

In prayer to God David said this:
Search me, O God, and know my heart; Try me and know my anxious thoughts (Psalm 139:23, NASB).

This is impossible for anyone but God can do. Since no other but God can do this then no other but God ought to be prayed to.

There is no Catholic or Orthodox prayer to Mary that says, 'Search me, O omniscent and divine Mary and know my heart; try me and know my anxious thoughts ..." The fact that you may have prayed like this when you were an ignorant kid, unaware of your own church's teachings, does not mean that the Church teaches but will not admit to teaching this. It seems you want to blame your ignorance on others and arrogantly claim to know what others believe or teach but won't admit to believing or teaching, and even claim to know what the angels and saints in heaven can and cannot know. Is this not merely ignorance, arrogance, and hypocrisy? And you call others 'idiots' and worse.

[tabibito]

With Foudroyant having spectacularly failed to demonstrate any foundation for his assertions about the practices of Rome in relation to saints, it becomes necessary to ask -
With regard to the form and content of the prayers directed to the saints, would addressing a living saint in those same terms be considered appropriate?

[foudroyant]

By claiming to know what Catholics teach and believe, but supposedly do not admit to teaching or believing, you assume the very knowledge of their hearts that you claim to know that Mary and the saints cannot have.

Because every time in the Bible prayer occurs it is always worship.
It doesn't take me to know all their hearts to assert as such. God taught this therefore it is settled.

[robrecht]

With Foudroyant having spectacularly failed to demonstrate any foundation for his assertions about the practices of Rome in relation to saints, it becomes necessary to ask -
With regard to the form and content of the prayers directed to the saints, would addressing a living saint in those same terms be considered appropriate?

Addressing a saint as if they were God? Sure doesn't sound appropriate to me. I think in our communal liturgy we feel as if the whole church on earth is joined with all the angels and saints in heaven, worshipping God together as the body of Christ. It is only by means of the Holy Spirit that we are able to pray, and we do not always know how we should pray, but looking to the saints as examples of others who have gone before us and lived heroic lives can be helpful for some, but it is always best to be part of a living community.

[foudroyant]

With Foudroyant having spectacularly failed to demonstrate any foundation for his assertions about the practices of Rome in relation to saints

Zero passages from the Bible where prayer is not worship.

You have continually failed to cite just one.

[Spartacus]

Zero passages from the Bible where prayer is not worship.

You have continually failed to cite just one.

We still don't need one.

[foudroyant]

We still don't need one.

I know because there isn't any.
God taught something over and over and you can't find one instance where he taught otherwise so you and others stubbornly violate His command.