Praying to Mary is worshiping Mary

[robrecht]

In practice they do.

This is untrue. Catholics and other apostolic Christians do not consider Mary to be God or a god.

[foudroyant]

They may so they don't but as I wrote "in practice they do".

See Post #587
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...ng-Mary/page59

[foudroyant]

Then why does the text say, 'the angel of YHWH' instead of YHWH? Is the text wrong?


I did not ask if it was OK; I asked if it was necessarily 'worship'.

The text isn't wrong. God is not strictly a Unitarian Being.
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...is-48-15-16%29

Asking God for a car is worship.

[robrecht]

They may so they don't but as I wrote "in practice they do".

See Post #587
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...ng-Mary/page59

But in practice they do not, which is why you are mistaken, as is your source:

Watson's Biblical and Theological Dictionary: ...The veneration which the Papists pay to the Virgin Mary, and other saints and angels, and to the bread in the sacrament, the cross, relics, and images, affords ground for the Protestants to charge them with being idolaters, though they deny that they are so. It is evident that they worship these persons and things, and that they justify the worship, but deny the idolatry of it, by distinguishing subordinate from supreme worship.

How much experience do you have of worship services of Catholic and Orthodox Christians?

[robrecht]

The text isn't wrong. God is not strictly a Unitarian Being.
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...is-48-15-16%29

Do you believe that angels are creatures or gods?

Asking God for a car is worship.

Do you think if my son asks me to buy him a car, he is worshipping me? I think most people would recognize differing kinds of prayer. It is not just about asking for things.

[foudroyant]

In practice they do because every time prayer is done in the Bible it is always worship - and God alone ought to be worshiped. Thus my source is correct.
I was a Roman Catholic for almost 20 years.
Created angels are creatures of God.
If your son asked you to buy him a car he is not worshiping you but if he were to do so silently while at the same with myriads of other people silently making requests unto you and he expected you to know what he was asking, along with every one else, then yes he would be worshiping you.

[tabibito]

Then why does the text say, 'the angel of YHWH' instead of YHWH? Is the text wrong?


I did not ask if it was OK; I asked if it was necessarily 'worship'.

There are times when the text shows that the angel of the Lord is YHVH, but right now I tend to the view this isn't one of them.

[One Bad Pig]

In practice they do.

Paul also used the same language towards Caesar and Jesus Christ, as tabibito pointed out. If your interpretations were consistent, then that means Paul "in practice" considers Caesar every bit as much "Lord" as he does Jesus Christ. You're entitled to your interpretation, but consistency would make it more reasonable.

[robrecht]

In practice they do because every time prayer is done in the Bible it is always worship - and God alone ought to be worshiped. Thus my source is correct.
I was a Roman Catholic for almost 20 years.
Created angels are creatures of God.
If your son asked you to buy him a car he is not worshiping you but if he were to do so silently while at the same with myriads of other people silently making requests unto you and he expected you to know what he was asking, along with every one else, then yes he would be worshiping you.

It is indeed true that some Catholics and other Christians are not well educated about their faith and there are, in my opinion, some exaggerated expressions of devotion that I would not endorse. It sounds like maybe you were not that well educated in the Catholic faith, which is unfortunate, but you can address that now.

My son is well aware of the fact that I am not God or any kind of god, 'though he loves me very much anyway, and if he were to silently ask me for a car, he would therefore certainly not be worshipping me. Stupid perhaps, but not worshipping me. He might also be clever and creative in finding indirect ways to imply that it would be good if he had a car, but that too would not be worship, just subtle indirect and silent communication. If others were to pray to me silently, expecting me to buy them cars like some kind of magic Oprah, that would be pretty funny, but they would certainly be deluded because I do not have nearly as much money as Oprah. If they thought I was some kind of god or God, their delusion would be idolatrous. If they knew that I was not god or God, they might be engaging in some kind of superstition, like baseball players not changing their socks when they are on a winning streak, who nonetheless do not think their dirty socks are gods or God.

[robrecht]

Created angels are creatures of God.

So when the angel/messenger of Yahweh and Abraham spoke with each other in Genesis 22, do you believe that the angel/messenger of Yahweh was a creature or the Creator?

[robrecht]

I was a Roman Catholic for almost 20 years.

When you were a Roman Catholic, foudroyant, did you believe that Mary was the creator of the universe?

[foudroyant]

Paul also used the same language towards Caesar and Jesus Christ, as tabibito pointed out. If your interpretations were consistent, then that means Paul "in practice" considers Caesar every bit as much "Lord" as he does Jesus Christ. You're entitled to your interpretation, but consistency would make it more reasonable.

I already addressed this in Post #645.

[foudroyant]

So when the angel/messenger of Yahweh and Abraham spoke with each other in Genesis 22, do you believe that the angel/messenger of Yahweh was a creature or the Creator?

Creator

[foudroyant]

When you were a Roman Catholic, foudroyant, did you believe that Mary was the creator of the universe?

No but I did assign her omniscience in that I prayed to her.

[One Bad Pig]

I already addressed this in Post #645.

No you didn't.