The irony is that it was the Greek thinkers (analogous of the secular world of today) that insisted on geocentrism. The church merely followed what conventional worldly wisdom accepted and understood at the time because it seemed obvious via the assessment of nature. Then they used isolated passages (many of which were misinterpreted or mistranslated) as opposed to a whole book to affirm that belief. It took other Christian thinkers to actually debunk the belief.
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Why is human evolution not a slippery slope?
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Originally posted by Scrawly View PostIsn't the reason we can even label a passage of the bible as "phenomenological" due to the input of scientific findings? Without the aid of science to inform our interpretation how would you ever conclude that the phenomenological language of the sun setting, for example, is not literally true, but only how it appears?
Didn't everyone also pretty much agree that the earth was stationary as well? At another point in time I am sure most everyone agreed that the earth was flat, and I am sure the Bible was evoked to support that belief at various points in time.
Here are a few samples of the theological momentum behind a geocentric view in the early church, for instance:
Originally posted by Scrawly View PostCaught in the middle are those that interpret Genesis in light of ANE findings and other support from the sciences. They are questioning an interpretation of the text by utilizing other tools for a more accurate analysis so as not to repeat the mistakes of history - such as the mistakes of:
Melanchthon: The eyes are witnesses that the heavens revolve in the space of twenty-four hours. But certain men, either from the love of novelty, or to make a display of ingenuity, have concluded that the earth moves; and they maintain that neither the [stars] nor the sun revolves...Now, it is a want of honesty and decency to assert such notions publicly, and the example is pernicious. It is the part of a good mind to accept the truth as revealed by God and to acquiesce in it.
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John Calvin: The heavens revolve daily, and, immense as is their fabric, and inconceivable the rapidity of their revolutions, we experience no concussion -- no disturbance in the harmony of their motion. The sun, though varying its course every diurnal revolution, returns annually to the same point. The planets, in all their wandering, maintain their respective positions. How could the earth hang suspended in the air were it not upheld by God's hand? (Job 26:7) By what means could it [the earth] maintain itself unmoved, while the heavens above are in constant rapid motion, did not its Divine Maker fix and establish it? Accordingly the particle, ape, denoting emphasis, is introduced -- YEA, he hath established it--John Calvin, Commentary on the Book of Psalms, Psalm 93, verse 1, trans., James Anderson (Eerdman's, 1949), Vol. 4, p. 7
So you are sure that all theistic evolutionists behave in this manner when doing science?
So would it be proper to say that a YEC assumes his interpretation of the biblical text is the correct one, and then analyzes scientific data through those interpretative lenses? What if his interpretation is wrong, how will he ever be corrected?
I agree, but I think its wise to be open to the possibility that the earth appears to be old, because it actually is.
Scientism is essentially naturalism so no Christian will read the Bible through those lenses. Christian scientists wisely, I think, let the scientific data inform their interpretation of the text which is why geocentrism and a flat earth, for example, are rejected as valid interpretations. Although, there are many well meaning Christian's who take the Bible as a guiding principle and thus affirm a flat earth and geocentric view in spite of scientific findings under the banner of "let God be true and every man a liar".
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Originally posted by Scrawly View PostI don't think there was theological momentum for the age of the earth until the advent of the relatively new movement of young earth creationism.
For a sampling of such theologians stretching from Clement to Isaac Newton, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dating_creation
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Originally posted by seanD View PostI admit, this is something I've struggled with for a long time. As a creationist, I have to believe human evolution is a lie, one of the biggest lies to ever befall the intellect of man. So I struggle with the issue of why God would allow such a powerful lie that would ensnare so many Christians, and a lie that is upheld as undeniable by the most prestigious institutions of the world. The same institutions we hold with much esteem and as an authority on other issues that affect our lives. In some respects, I happen to agree with phat8594. There are a lot of Christians that claim they're TEs without really having a grasp of the theory, just because it's the less embarrassing belief to hold. But this can't be the case with all Christians. I struggle with the scope of that deception.
But let's assume the current estimate is correct - does that mean Genesis cannot be literally true? If we go at it hyperliterally, yes; but the first day and first night occur before there's a planet rotating so maybe hyperliteralism isn't justified. Genesis doesn't provide a scientific blueprint (poor Moses' head would probably have exploded...) or an exact timescale so maybe we shouldn't treat it as something it's not.
Myself, I fully believe God created the universe (I use the term in its original meaning so the multiverse, if it exists, would be a subset) and that when we fully understand the process (I'm expecting the Second Coming long before this happens here) Genesis will make perfect sense compared to that process. I'm not sure it's worthwhile to let mechanics compete with actual faith (trusting God). Science can't tell us diddly about why - that is its limitation. It gets a huge amount wrong (eggs, anyone?) and doesn't 'self correct' nearly as well as folks like to believe - but so what? Science is just a really technical process of muddling through - it will eventually catch up. But it will never tell us anything truly important about ourselves or our Creator - human nature and a Holy God are beyond its abilities. So seriously, do we care that stars appear really far apart more than why people find it so impossible to truly love one another? Which is really more important in life?
Quit worrying about making the peg of unknown shape go in the round hole - that's concentrating on the wrong part."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostBut let's assume the current estimate is correct - does that mean Genesis cannot be literally true? If we go at it hyperliterally, yes; but the first day and first night occur before there's a planet rotating so maybe hyperliteralism isn't justified.
Genesis doesn't provide a scientific blueprint (poor Moses' head would probably have exploded...) or an exact timescale so maybe we shouldn't treat it as something it's not.
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Originally posted by Joel View PostIt says that on the first day there is light day and dark night. Where does it say the earth isn't rotating then?
It does give time-spans in numbers of days and years. Are these not exact?
http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2003/PSCF12-03Hill.pdf"I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostQuit worrying about making the peg of unknown shape go in the round hole - that's concentrating on the wrong part."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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I do understand why people see it as a slippery slope, though I believe this has more to do with what people expect out of God/the Bible. If, hypothetically, one were to find an error in scripture, this logically would not invalidate the Resurrection, but I see how it would make people uncomfortable. I grew up thinking of the Bible in a strikingly hyper-literal fashion; not because of how I was raised, but because of how literal/black and white I see things, and even some things that barely cause other people discomfort rocked my world (like realizing that Amos was written in a less formal style of Hebrew than, say, Isaiah). When one is used to seeing through this paradigm, having it disturbed can be greatly discomforting.
I think the key to thinking through these issues is rethinking what we expect out of God, even if just as a thought experiment."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by seanD View PostI admit, this is something I've struggled with for a long time. As a creationist, I have to believe human evolution is a lie, one of the biggest lies to ever befall the intellect of man. So I struggle with the issue of why God would allow such a powerful lie that would ensnare so many Christians, and a lie that is upheld as undeniable by the most prestigious institutions of the world. The same institutions we hold with much esteem and as an authority on other issues that affect our lives. In some respects, I happen to agree with phat8594. There are a lot of Christians that claim they're TEs without really having a grasp of the theory, just because it's the less embarrassing belief to hold. But this can't be the case with all Christians. I struggle with the scope of that deception.
But you do not have to be a creationist in this sense. Is that something that you choose at some level? Is it a predestined faith that is beyond your control? If it is a choice, then you are free to make other choices that may make more sense of the world around us ... and God above.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Just because Paul and Luke were ancient men with a prescientific view of human history, that invalidates the Christian faith, the faith and teachings of Jesus?אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostJust because Paul and Luke were ancient men with a prescientific view of human history, that invalidates the Christian faith, the faith and teachings of Jesus?Last edited by seanD; 03-11-2014, 09:49 PM.
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Originally posted by seanD View PostIt would never invalidate the resurrection because I don't believe humans evolved from lower primates. But assuming it to be true, no, it doesn't invalidate it on a historical level, hence, for me, is on solid ground regardless, as far as the theology behind it. But it does make me wonder why we needed redemption if the fall never happened or when the fall actually occurred, why it occurred, and it how it occurred, and now there is no foundation for this because Paul's interpretive theology was pretty much THE theological foundation for it. However, for others not so established in belief of the resurrection from a historical perspective, like say... most modern churches and congregants today... I could only imagine how much of an issue this could be if they faced it as directly and honestly as the OP is attempting to do.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostIt seems as if you think Paul's theology can only be understood historically. I do not doubt that Paul understood Adam to have been an historical person, but there is also plenty of later Jewish mythological reference to Adam, and Paul himself is not at all averse to midrashic and symbolic interpretations of scripture. I do not think Paul's theology is invalidated by progress in the scientific and historical view of man's origins. Were Paul around today, I think he would be the first to adapt his theology to the situation of today's believers. Of course that is merely a 'thought experiment', but can you seriously imagine Paul saying, 'No, I give you this as a commandment from the Lord, you must abandon science and hold to the common beliefs of first century'?
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Originally posted by seanD View PostYou're talking about two different things. Midrashic interpretation doesn't solve the problem of historical error; the latter being the topic of the OP.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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