Who is a Christian?

[37818]

Actually, there IS a way to know if a person is a completed Christian.

Well, there are two issues here. One, knowing about another. And second, as to what you mean by, "completed Christian."

[Rushing Jaws]

Actually, there IS a way to know if a person is a completed Christian. As Paul stands before his listeners, his wish is that they be like him in all ways except for his chains. He has been made right with God through Christ and he wishes for the same for all his readers.

IOW, it isn’t a goal that is set ONLY for Paul.

Acts 26:29And Paul said, "I would wish to God, that whether in a short or long time, not only you, but also all who hear me this day, might become such as I am, except for these chains."



2 Corinthians 5:21For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, so that we could be made right with God through Christ.

http://ntwrightpage.com/Wright_Becom...hteousness.pdf

Quote
Third, this reading of 5:21 has tied it in quite tightly, I think, to the whole argument of chaps. 3-5. This suggests to me that, although of course the first half of chap. 6 grows organically out of just this conclusion, it is misleading to treat 5:19 as though it were the conclusion of the long preceding argument and 5:20 as though it were the start of the new one. When it is read in the way I have suggested, 5:20-21 forms the natural climax to the entire argument of the preceding three chapters, with 6:1 being the point where Paul turns to address a specific appeal to the Corinthians. They have, after all, already been reconciled to God (5:20); 15 now they need to be urged not to receive this grace in vain (6:1). Moreover, they now have a significant new motive to heed this appeal: the one who speaks is not simply an odd, shabby, battle-scarred jailbird, but one who, however surprisingly, is a revelation in person of the covenant faithfulness of God.

## As you say, it's "his wish" - which AFAICS allows for the possibility that what he wishes for his correspondents & hearers, may not be fulfilled, or not in all of them. Since "they need to be urged not to receive this grace in vain", it is not impossible that they will receive it in vain. No words of the Apostle can replace their experience of God's grace - he cannot be faithful to it for them; their reception of it is irreducibly personal. And persons can be faithless, even though God is not.

There is also the complication that someone who falls away, may yet rise again. While still fallen, such a person may give no evidence of being someone who will rise again, and this time, persevere without falling. And conversely, people can have a very strong & productive faith, and "register" by every NT test as genuine, solid, sincere, & fervent Christians - yet be undone, and perhaps not be restored. The notion that a fallen Christian never was a Christian STM to take far too simple a view of human nature - it makes certainty that one is a Christian impossible, because for all one knows one may fall away. If salvation is not only an accomplished fact in the past, but also a present process & a good to be realised fully only in time to come, that seems to allow for the possibility of falling away - not because God is Unfaithful (!!!), but because man is.

That's why I think we should leave the question in God's hands, and trust to His Mercy to make up in us for all the ways in which He sees that we are defective; we are woefully skillful at deceiving ourselves, but we cannot in any way deceive Him. I think this kind of uncertainty is good for us, or for some of us, since the conviction of our own feebleness and untrustworthiness forces us to trust in God, & to rely on Him Alone for help. Maybe assurance of salvation would be deadly for some, but is just what others need.

[Rushing Jaws]

Hey Rushing Jaws, why do you use hashtags in your posts? It looks like you know how to use the quote tags just fine, so it doesn't appear that you use them to distinguish your writing from those you're quoting.

## Actually, it is "to distinguish [my] writing from those [I'm] quoting." Quotation are tags for quoting - not for stuff that is all/mostly my own work. It's not ideal, but I need to use something to distinguish my stuff from that written by others. FWIW, that makes 2 or possibly 3 people who've asked that question. Is it ugly, unreadable, confusing or something ?

[Adrift]

## Actually, it is "to distinguish [my] writing from those [I'm] quoting." Quotation are tags for quoting - not for stuff that is all/mostly my own work. It's not ideal, but I need to use something to distinguish my stuff from that written by others. FWIW, that makes 2 or possibly 3 people who've asked that question. Is it ugly, unreadable, confusing or something ?

Yeah, it seems unnecessary. The quote tags work just fine for most of us. I mean, I had absolutely zero issues distinguishing between your writing and mine or Footwasher's quotes in the above scenarios. Adding the hashtags just makes the posts look needlessly confusing. To be honest, and this is just me personally, but a lot of the time I tend to only skim over posts that are formatted oddly, or that are very very long. Just something in my mind is like I don't have to the time to try and figure out what's going on here.

[JonathanL]

Yeah, it seems unnecessary. The quote tags work just fine for most of us. I mean, I had absolutely zero issues distinguishing between your writing and mine or Footwasher's quotes in the above scenarios. Adding the hashtags just makes the posts look needlessly confusing. To be honest, and this is just me personally, but a lot of the time I tend to only skim over posts that are formatted oddly, or that are very very long. Just something in my mind is like I don't have to the time to try and figure out what's going on here.

All true, although I think the way Rushing Jaws formats his posts isn't half as confusing as some other posters here.

[Adrift]

All true, although I think the way Rushing Jaws formats his posts isn't half as confusing as some other posters here.

Agreed. I've seen worse.

[Cow Poke]

Yeah, it seems unnecessary. The quote tags work just fine for most of us. I mean, I had absolutely zero issues distinguishing between your writing and mine or Footwasher's quotes in the above scenarios. Adding the hashtags just makes the posts look needlessly confusing. To be honest, and this is just me personally, but a lot of the time I tend to only skim over posts that are formatted oddly, or that are very very long. Just something in my mind is like I don't have to the time to try and figure out what's going on here.

It's like some posters use "Adrift said...." and then "Robert: " to show their own words.... The QUOTE tags help out tremendously because they automatically include a hyperlink to take you to the source material, so you can see what the heck was being talked about. it's not unusual for somebody to do a PARTIAL quote, which could look damaging, but when you "jump" to the quote using the Hyperlink, you see what was ACTUALLY said and intended.

It just adds confusion unnecessarily to invent your own conventions.

[One Bad Pig]

It should also be noted that salvation is being saved from more than one thing, including the kingdom of darkness (past), Satan (present continuous), and the wrath of God (future).

Sort of. Salvation from one entails salvation from all three, however.

[37818]

## I would question whether we can know even about ourselves. ISTM one can have a high degree of testable moral certainty about one's condition at a given time, but that one cannot use the results to make predictions about one's status in the future.
God may see one as saved, being saved, to be saved - it does not follow one can use this knowledge oneself, because no-one knows perfectly the state of his soul, so cannot see all the corruption in him, nor how it may yet destroy him, or at least cause him to fall. I think it's much better to take the attention away from self, and put it back on Christ. That way one can avoid neurotic self-absorption & tying oneself in knots.

I am of the persuasion that one can know with absolute certainty for themselves. If one does not, .

The whole reason I accepted Christ as Savior was on the premise of knowing for sure.

The principle is not difficult.

". . . In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; . . ." -- Titus 1:2.

And it is promised further, ". . . These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, . . ." -- 1 John 5:13.

Please explain your problem with this.

Did Christ or did not Christ die for our sins?
Did Christ or did not Christ raise bodily from the tomb?
Did God or did not God promise, ". . . for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more?" -- Jeremiah 31:34?

[footwasher]

## As you say, it's "his wish" - which AFAICS allows for the possibility that what he wishes for his correspondents & hearers, may not be fulfilled, or not in all of them.

When we choose, make decisions, we evaluate and then act.

God allowed Israel to evaluate his faithfulness and power. They failed to trust him. Finally the deadline was reached.

Today we have also had time to evaluate God's ability. The deadline approaches:

http://www.google.co.in/search?q=tod...EOezmwXsqYCwDg

Hebrews 3:15 As has just been said: "Today, if you hear his voice ...
biblehub.com/hebrews/3-15.htm
Remember what it says: "Today when you hear his voice, don't harden your hearts as Israel ... Scripture says, "If you hear God speak today, don't be stubborn.

Hebrews 3:7 So, as the Holy Spirit says: "Today, if you hear his voice,
biblehub.com/hebrews/3-7.htm


Hebrews 4:7 God again set a certain day, calling it ... - Bible Hub
biblehub.com/hebrews/4-7.htm
This he did when a long time later he spoke through David, as in the passage already quoted: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts."


I can tell you that it's possible to see if a believer has matured or not. In fact in 1 John, we are shown how to do it.

[37818]

footwasher,
Can you answer my question?

Well, there are two issues here. One, knowing about another. And second, as to what you mean by, "completed Christian."

[footwasher]

Sort of. Salvation from one entails salvation from all three, however.

Actually, that is a great take away from scripture.

Paul is not content to have only his spirit resurrected and already united with Christ's Spirit in heaven , (past) he worked to make alive his body as well (present):

Romans 8:10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

To avoid an unfavorable judgment (future):

Mark 9:43If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It's better to enter eternal life with only one hand than to go into the unquenchable fires of hell with two hands.

Matthew 5:29If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

[footwasher]

Well, there are two issues here. One, knowing about another. And second, as to what you mean by, "completed Christian."

John says he knew the false believers because they went out from the assembling of the saints.

The believer can be completed matured only by remaining, and we see the completed Christian by looking at Paul.

Hint: the offering must be unblemished, righteous in God's eyes.



Acts 26:29And Paul said, "I would wish to God, that whether in a short or long time, not only you, but also all who hear me this day, might become such as I am, except for these chains."



2 Corinthians 5:21For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, so that we could be made right with God through Christ.

http://ntwrightpage.com/Wright_Becom...hteousness.pdf

Quote
Third, this reading of 5:21 has tied it in quite tightly, I think, to the whole argument of chaps. 3-5. This suggests to me that, although of course the first half of chap. 6 grows organically out of just this conclusion, it is misleading to treat 5:19 as though it were the conclusion of the long preceding argument and 5:20 as though it were the start of the new one. When it is read in the way I have suggested, 5:20-21 forms the natural climax to the entire argument of the preceding three chapters, with 6:1 being the point where Paul turns to address a specific appeal to the Corinthians. They have, after all, already been reconciled to God (5:20); 15 now they need to be urged not to receive this grace in vain (6:1). Moreover, they now have a significant new motive to heed this appeal: the one who speaks is not simply an odd, shabby, battle-scarred jailbird, but one who, however surprisingly, is a revelation in person of the covenant faithfulness of God.

[37818]

. . .

To avoid an unfavorable judgment (future):

Mark 9:43If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It's better to enter eternal life with only one hand than to go into the unquenchable fires of hell with two hands.

Matthew 5:29If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

That is under the Law not under grace. And then under the Law:
". . . Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." -- Galatians 5:19-21.

Law or grace? The choice:
"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting." -- Galatians 6:7-8.

"For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith. . . ." -- 1 John 5:4.
"He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." -- Revelation 21:7-8.

[footwasher]

That is under the Law not under grace. And then under the Law:
". . . Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." -- Galatians 5:19-21.

Law or grace? The choice:
"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting." -- Galatians 6:7-8.

"For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith. . . ." -- 1 John 5:4.
"He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." -- Revelation 21:7-8.

Every covenant, agreement, has requirements and rewards.

The old covenant had requirements (glorify God for His promise of a future deliverance) and rewards: (safety instructions, Torah, Law).

The new covenant had requirements (glorify God for a present deliverance) and rewards: (user instructions, Gospel, Grace).