Originally posted by Scrawly
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Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
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Originally posted by pancreasman View PostI do find that horrid. Anecdote just won't do it. It's usually justified on what I consider the bad interpretation of a few scriptures. I was a REAL Christian. I trusted utterly in Christ for my salvation. Only my continued self education led me to other conclusions.
Perhaps I could put it another way. I was as REAL a Christian as you can get. I was a REAL a Christian as you think you are. I thought I was, just like you. In fact, I don't think there any REAL Christians in that mystical sense in which you use the term. I now think it is all a little earnest self deception. I don't usually say that because I think it's disrespectful to your current lived experience, but if you're free to doubt my experience, then I'm free to doubt yours.
I don't think there's anything constructive to be gained by dismissing out of hand someone's experience. You can only start from where a person is NOW. If your goal is to truly lead me to Christ, this sort of judgement only pushes me further away.Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostIMO the language of the NT points to salvation as a continuing process, not a point event. English translations tend to obscure this entirely. Thus in this life, when following Christ, one is being saved; when one is not following Christ, one is not being saved. Though we are faithless, still He is faithful (2 Tim 2:13). If anyone repents and turns to Christ, he is being saved. That possibility is there at least until death. I think these men confused a new, deeper understanding of Christianity with a salvation event.Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
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Originally posted by Jedidiah View PostWell I am sorry you feel offended, that was never my intention. I stand by what I wrote, but I will drop it now.Last edited by pancreasman; 02-12-2015, 08:58 PM.
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostPhilippians 2:12 should be kept in mind. Though salvation is of grace and not works, effort is needed to persevere in the faith.Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostOkay, so in your view, how many chances do we get at this assuming we do lose our salvation? Are we re-reborn every time we come back into salvation? Do we become new creations over and over again? Is there a hypothetical limit to the number of times we can be reborn? Are we filled with the holy spirit each time? And what does it mean to have eternal life? Is eternal life something we only have once we die and go to heaven, or is it something we can live in right here and now when we make Christ Lord? If the latter, then how is it that eternal life can dissipate and go away? How can we call it eternal if it can be squelched? How does keeping up minimal faith requirements square up with passages like James 2:12 which says "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it."? What does the author of Hebrews mean when he writes in 6:4, "For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame." Is Christ crucified again and again when we come back into saving grace? How do we square this view with passages like John 6:37, 1 John 2:19, and 1 John 3:6?
I don't personally think there is a "limit" to the number of times one can repent, based on what Jesus said about forgiving our brother seven times seven if he genuinely repents. If somebody is trying to abuse this (like the European monarch in olden times who would sleep with a mistress everyday and then go see his confessor) I see it as evidence one is not clearly saved, but if one is struggling and genuinely trying I think grace still exists. (This was debated in the early church; the Shepherd of Hermas suggested that one could only repent of serious sins once after becoming a Christian; Tertullian thought even this was one too many.)"I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostThat's the passage I usually hear in this type of discussion, but scholars have varying interpretations on it. See for example Gordon Fee's:
Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
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Originally posted by Jedidiah View PostExactly! I have been saved and now I must work out that salvation in my every day life (being saved). A truly challenging task.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by pancreasman View PostYou might be misreading what I'm saying. I'm using the word 'horrid' because you used it. I find it mildly offensive and unproductive. The second part of my post was an attempt to put the shoe on the other foot and show how silly that sounded. I guess my writing skills failed to convey what Meant.Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostOkay, so in your view, how many chances do we get at this assuming we do lose our salvation?
Are we re-reborn every time we come back into salvation? Do we become new creations over and over again? Is there a hypothetical limit to the number of times we can be reborn?
Are we filled with the Holy Spirit each time?
And what does it mean to have eternal life? Is eternal life something we only have once we die and go to heaven, or is it something we can live in right here and now when we make Christ Lord? If the latter, then how is it that eternal life can dissipate and go away? How can we call it eternal if it can be squelched?
How does keeping up minimal faith requirements square up with passages like James 2:12 which says "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it."?
What does the author of Hebrews mean when he writes in 6:4, "For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame." Is Christ crucified again and again when we come back into saving grace?
How do we square this view with passages like John 6:37
1 John 2:19,
and 1 John 3:6?Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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IMHO, this thread is wandering off into well known territory that kind of excludes me from participating as a non-Christian. We seemed to reach consensus that it was very difficult if not well nigh impossible to judge another's salvation state but then reversed and some of you now claim that although you can't be sure of the salvation state of your fellow Christians you CAN be sure of mine. It seems an odd place to be.
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Originally posted by pancreasman View PostIMHO, this thread is wandering off into well known territory that kind of excludes me from participating as a non-Christian. We seemed to reach consensus that it was very difficult if not well nigh impossible to judge another's salvation state but then reversed and some of you now claim that although you can't be sure of the salvation state of your fellow Christians you CAN be sure of mine. It seems an odd place to be.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostWhat does it mean to be "filled with the Holy Spirit"?
I'm fairly certain that occurs in the life to come (Luke 18:30).Good question. We need to square it in some sense with James 5:19-20. This may be a case of hyperbole to show the gravity of turning away.
I don't see how this is relevant; it refers to the actions of Jesus, not the person.
I would not say that all who claim Christianity are born again. Was Simon Magus?
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Originally posted by pancreasman View PostIMHO, this thread is wandering off into well known territory that kind of excludes me from participating as a non-Christian. We seemed to reach consensus that it was very difficult if not well nigh impossible to judge another's salvation state but then reversed and some of you now claim that although you can't be sure of the salvation state of your fellow Christians you CAN be sure of mine. It seems an odd place to be.
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