Derail thread: Is repentance necessary for salvation?

[foudroyant]

Shows they worshiped God afterwards as well.
The fact that the received the Holy spirit proves they already confessed.

Waiting for your response to my question in Post #72.

[tabibito]

The topic under review concerns whether the people were saved when the Holy Spirit fell on them.
Had they entered into Christ before the Holy Spirit fell on them? Is it necessary to be in Christ to be saved?

[foudroyant]

That's why I am waiting for you to answer my question.

[tabibito]

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,fn who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
Rom 12:5 so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another.
1Co 1:2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
1Co 1:30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption—
2Co 1:21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God,
2Co 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
Eph 2:7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Phl 1:1 Paul and Timothy, bondservants of Jesus Christ, To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, with the bishops and deacons

Is that enough to establish that a person is saved if he is in Christ Jesus, or should I collect more evidence?

[tabibito]

Assuredly, the gentiles received the Holy Spirit before they were baptised.

[foudroyant]

Then according to 1 John 4:13 they were saved before their water baptism.

[tabibito]

1Jo 4:13 By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.

ALMOST good enough. The "him" and "he" is God, not specifically Christ. And that he abides in us and we in him does not state that we are saved. It is a logical inference, but not the only possible inference.

[tabibito]

1Jo 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.

There are for example, people who will make much of this statement, and attempt to ignore verse 13 as of no consequence because of it.

[foudroyant]

If one is "in God" then they are "in Christ".

Here you go for 1 John 4:13

1. NIDNTT: And in the Johannine writings as elsewhere the Spirit is also detectable by the effects of his coming (Jn. 3:8), so much so that the immediacy of the Spirit’s indwelling is one of the tests of life in 1 Jn. (3:24; 4:13) (3:703, Spirit, J.D.G. Dunn).
2. TDNT: In 1 Jn. pneuma is first used along primitive Christian lines for the distinguishing mark of the great turning-point. The new thing made known thereby, however, is no longer just the eschaton which has now come; it is the abiding of Christ in believers, 3:24; 4:13 (6:448, pneuma, Schweizer).
3. Danker: of Christians 1 J 3:24; 4:13, 15f (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, en, page 327).

Yes, they were saved before their water baptism.

[tabibito]

We know that we are in him because he has given us the Holy Spirit. He who abides in love abides in God.

So - which of these factors might be present in a person who is not saved? Does the fact that the Holy Spirit falls on a person prove that the Holy Spirit abides in that person?

[foudroyant]

They were "given" the Holy Spirit....thus they abide in God.

[tabibito]

If one is "in God" then they are "in Christ".

Here you go for 1 John 4:13

1. NIDNTT: And in the Johannine writings as elsewhere the Spirit is also detectable by the effects of his coming (Jn. 3:8), so much so that the immediacy of the Spirit’s indwelling is one of the tests of life in 1 Jn. (3:24; 4:13) (3:703, Spirit, J.D.G. Dunn).
2. TDNT: In 1 Jn. pneuma is first used along primitive Christian lines for the distinguishing mark of the great turning-point. The new thing made known thereby, however, is no longer just the eschaton which has now come; it is the abiding of Christ in believers, 3:24; 4:13 (6:448, pneuma, Schweizer).
3. Danker: of Christians 1 J 3:24; 4:13, 15f (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, en, page 327).

Yes, they were saved before their water baptism.

Where do any of your citations say that? They don't even identify the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as being the same thing as the Holy Spirit falling on people.

[foudroyant]

The same Greek word for "given" as it applies to the Holy Spirit is used both in Acts 11:17 (as well as Acts 15:8) and 1 John 4:13.

[tabibito]

διδωμι in 1 John 4:13 - the Spirit having been given.
διδωμι in Acts 11:17 - the gift having been given.
διδωμι in Acts 15:8 - the Spirit having been given, but the people concerned are not Cornelius' group.

OK - not conclusive, but it is food for thought. I'll have to do a bit of work on it.

[tabibito]

Now - how do you read 1 John 4:13 in context with verses 15 and 16? Is only one or two of the three essential, or are all of them essential to show that God abides in a person? Which of the three is dispensable?