Dinosaurs Redux

[Scrawly]

Obsidian can you please answer this:

So do you believe the dinosaurs were part of God's "good" creation? If so, how could an existence of little more than carnage and savagery be called "good"? Or do you believe they were part of the curse/fall? If so, why didn't God say anything about this curse in Genesis? Furthermore, why did God subject such a small portion of human history to experience this curse and absolve the vast majority?

[rogue06]

Pardon my ignorance here, but if Carbon-14 dating goes back to a ballpark figure of 50,000 years then why did the Carbon-14 dating of the dinosaur bones yield only a 10,000-16,000 year range? Shouldn't the carbon dating have shown the furthest it can extend back - 50,000 years old - if the bones were in fact millions of years old?

Using C-14 testing on something millions of years old is going to give a totally screwed up result period. That does not mean it will give a a maximum date (50,000 years), just a screwed up one.

[Obsidian]

So in other words, radiation dating is imprecise and the whole system involves speculation.

Obsidian can you please answer this:

I already answered your question. It doesn't make sense. Do you have a problem with crocodiles, too? What about tigers?

[tabibito]

Of course radio carbon dating is imprecise. The limits of precision are known, and that is why radio carbon dating usually declares a margin of error (1000 years plus or minus 50 years, for example). It tends to be wildly inaccurate for dating cloth, unless surface contaminants can be successfully removed without compromising the core of the fibres.
It can't be used successfully on anything more than 50 000 years old - beyond that span, other methods of testing can be successfully used, and they also have known margins of error, which are also stated.
So - what is your point?

[Obsidian]

I don't buy it. I think it is all imprecise, not just carbon.

[Scrawly]

So in other words, radiation dating is imprecise and the whole system involves speculation.



I already answered your question. It doesn't make sense. Do you have a problem with crocodiles, too? What about tigers?

So do you believe the dinosaurs were contemporaneous with Adam and Eve? Do you believe they blissfully got along in the garden of Eden?

[Obsidian]

Do you believe they blissfully got along in the garden of Eden?

Either that, or they were excluded from the garden.

The Bible is not entirely clear how much danger there was in the world at that time. It is only clear that in spite of the danger, Adam and Eve were supposed to be immune to death.

[seanD]

I have become increasingly interested in the role dinosaurs played within the Christian worldview. They seem to have been quite the anomaly. These "terrible lizards"(1) roamed the earth for millions of years - a seemingly bleak existence comprising mainly of carnage and survival of the fittest.

How does this picture fit within Christian theism? What purpose did they serve? I am sure more questions will arise as the discussion blossoms.

-----------------------

(1) Actually it was originally defined to mean "fearfully-great lizard", by Richard Owen in 1842. The greek word "deinos", when used as a superlative, means "fearfully-great" (as used by Homer in The Iliad). It became simplified over time, as a simple adjective, to mean "terrible". Dinosaurs are neither terrible nor are they lizards! http://paleobiology.si.edu/dinosaurs...ons/mis_4.html

Three theories:

- Gap theory is true and dinosaurs were part of an ancient ecosystem prior to Genesis 1:2.
- Dinosaurs were part of a balanced ecosystem before the fall (whether they were always "terrible beasts" is impossible to prove). After the fall, the ecosystem got knocked out of whack, thus dinosaurs had to be removed since they had gotten so big and ferocious.
- Dinosaurs are part of lost ancient genetic technology that got out of hand (book of Jasher states mankind was genetically manipulating both man and animal species, which ticked off God), thus had to be removed by the flood.

[Scrawly]

Three theories:

- Gap theory is true and dinosaurs were part of an ancient ecosystem prior to Genesis 1:2.
- Dinosaurs were part of a balanced ecosystem before the fall (whether they were always "terrible beasts" is impossible to prove). After the fall, the ecosystem got knocked out of whack, thus dinosaurs had to be removed since they had gotten so big and ferocious.
- Dinosaurs are part of lost ancient genetic technology that got out of hand (book of Jasher states mankind was genetically manipulating both man and animal species, which ticked off God), thus had to be removed by the flood.

#1 seems most reasonable, by far.

[Scrawly]

Three theories:

- Gap theory is true and dinosaurs were part of an ancient ecosystem prior to Genesis 1:2.
- Dinosaurs were part of a balanced ecosystem before the fall (whether they were always "terrible beasts" is impossible to prove). After the fall, the ecosystem got knocked out of whack, thus dinosaurs had to be removed since they had gotten so big and ferocious.
- Dinosaurs are part of lost ancient genetic technology that got out of hand (book of Jasher states mankind was genetically manipulating both man and animal species, which ticked off God), thus had to be removed by the flood.

Sean, I am not exactly familiar with "gap theory", however, let's suppose it was true - what purpose do you think the dinosaurs served in that context?

[apostoli]

Either that, or they were excluded from the garden.

The Bible is not entirely clear how much danger there was in the world at that time. It is only clear that in spite of the danger, Adam and Eve were supposed to be immune to death.

Obviously you haven't read Genesis 3. Adam and Eve were only immune from death as long as they had access to the tree of life! Now, once you have read Genesis 3, you will note that access to the tree of life was prohibited to them, and thus (as A.Paul dictates) death came upon them and their children and thus all mankind. Now flip to the last chapter of Revelation and discover that those who are permitted to enter the New Jerusalem regain access to the tree of life and thus their life is sustained...

As for dinosaurs: We need to reconcile Genesis 1 & 2. As with all gardens there are exclusions in respect of the particular environment... Here in Oz (almost the size of the USA) there is evidence of giant marsupiales once existing but no evidence of the creatures that once inhabited the Northern Hemisphere...

[The Remonstrant]

Obviously you haven't read Genesis 3. Adam and Eve were only immune from death as long as they had access to the tree of life! Now, once you have read Genesis 3, you will note that access to the tree of life was prohibited to them, and thus (as A.Paul dictates) death came upon them and their children and thus all mankind. Now flip to the last chapter of Revelation and discover that those who are permitted to enter the New Jerusalem regain access to the tree of life and thus their life is sustained...

Precisely.¹

(I'm out.)

Note

¹ Cf. messages #116 and #123 on the following thread ("Don Carson on hell" in the Christianity 201 forum):

• http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...on-Hell/page12 (message #116)
• http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...on-Hell/page13 (message #123)

[rogue06]

So in other words, radiation dating is imprecise and the whole system involves speculation.

No. But if you deliberately misuse something you should not be surprised if you get crap.

If you are actually interested in learning about radiometric dating I strongly suggest reading "Radiometric Dating: A Christian Perspective" by Dr. Roger C. Wiens, a physicist employed in the Space and Atmospheric Sciences Group at the Los Alamos National Laboratory who specializes in the subject. It is written in an easy to understand manner without talking down to the reader.